Class 387

[AM9]

Keep the decrepit 319s with the great unwashed north of St Pancras.

Logically the slower stock should stay in the more pedestrian areas, - i.e. 3rd rail. The MML fast is mostly 100 from WHL northwards. How much of the BML is?

 

[jon0844]

As the 319s get older and more unreliable, we need to keep moving them north! Surely we all know the rules by now?

 

[Minstral25]

If I recall correctly 387101-387104 and 387122-387129 have not seen service yet. That gives 17 units used and usable so far (i.e. 387105-387121 inclusive). OK perhaps 387120 is on other duties rather than in service. Class377/5 will have the correct info.

Thanks. So where are 387 101 to 104 hiding - assuming that they were built in numerical order

 

[AM9]

Thanks. So where are 387 101 to 104 hiding - assuming that they were built in numerical order

They are being kept safely for St Albans - Core shuttles, when required.

 

[Fincra5]

You know the drill. South of the river gets all the new stuff. And the North gets the old stuff that we are bored of.

 

[Class377/5]

Does that mean that the Brighton line will be completely devoid of 319's by the time all 387's are delivered?

Which line will see the 700's first?

The plan is to have only Electrostars on the BML.

Logically the slower stock should stay in the more pedestrian areas, - i.e. 3rd rail. The MML fast is mostly 100 from WHL northwards. How much of the BML is?

No logic is putting stock where it can be used. Electrostars can't be used on Sutton and Sevenoaks services currently due to restrictions. So for now only 319s can be used on those routes. Also having Electrostars only on the BML will help in an event where one unit fails. Don't forget the plan is by the end of the year to only have Electrostars on the BML bar the Eastbourne 442s.

Thanks. So where are 387 101 to 104 hiding - assuming that they were built in numerical order

387101/102/104 were the test bed units for 110mph running. First at Old Dalby then on WCML. Three rest of the fleet is simply commissioned.

387103 is at Derby. 3871p5 was always planned to be the first in service. The first four will arrive last.

 

[samj]

What type of unit forms the 1808 Brighton-Bedford as of today? Many thanks.

 

[Minstral25]

387101/102/104 were the test bed units for 110mph running. First at Old Dalby then on WCML. Three rest of the fleet is simply commissioned.

387103 is at Derby. 3871p5 was always planned to be the first in service. The first four will arrive last.

Thanks that makes sense

 

[richa2002]

What type of unit forms the 1808 Brighton-Bedford as of today? Many thanks.

Will be 377515 and 377503 today.

 

[Class377/5]

Weekdays

301/302
1W04 05:44 Brighton to Bedford
2W23 08:40 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W30 11:14 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W43 13:40 Bedford to Three Bridges
1W92 16:14 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W57 18:24 Bedford to Brighton
1W68 21:30 Brighton to Bedford

303/304
1H83 06:34 Bedford to Beckenham Junction
1G63 08:02 Beckenham Junction to Bedford
1W21 09:54 Bedford to Brighton
1W32 12:38 Brighton to Bedford
1W43 15:24 Bedford to Brighton
1B50 18:28 Brighton to London Bridge
1B55 19:42 London Bridge to Brighton
1W66 21:02 Brighton to Bedford

305/306
1W01 04:16Bedford to Brighton
1W83 07:24 Brighton to Bedford
1W23 10:24 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13:08 Brighton to Bedford
1W45 16:46 Bedford to Brighton
1W56 18:38 Brighton to Bedford
1W69 21:22 Bedford to Brighton

307/308
1W00 05:10 Brighton to Bedford
1J88 07:58 Bedford to Elephant & Castle
1G69 10:04 Elephant & Castle to Bedford
1W29 11:54 Bedford to Brighton
1W40 14:38 Brighton to Bedford
2W61 17:20 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W62 19:44 Three Bridges to Bedford

309/310
2W87 01:42 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W92 04:16 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W84 06:54 Bedford to Brighton
1B14 09:28 Brighton to London Bridge
1B19 10:42 London Bridge to Brighton
1B24 11:56 Brighton to London Bridge
1B29 13:12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B36 14:56 Brighton to London Bridge
1B41 16:12 London Bridge to Brighton
1W97 17:38 Brighton to Bedford
1W73 22:22 Bedford to Brighton

311/312
2W93 03:12 Bedford to Brighton
1W08 06:22 Brighton to Bedford
1W19 09:24 Bedford to Brighton
1W30 12:08 Brighton to Bedford
1W41 14:54 Bedford to Brighton
1B48 17:56 Brighton to London Bridge
1B53 19:12 London Bridge to Brighton
1W64 Brighton to Bedford

313/314
1W03 04:46 Bedford to Brighton
1W14 07:48 Brighton to Bedford
2W31 10:40 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W38 13:14 Three Bridges to Bedford
1H66 15:40 Bedford to Beckenham Junction
1G79 17:30 Beckenham Junction to Bedford
1W61 19:26 Bedford to Brighton
1W72 22:20 Brighton to Bedford

 

[Aictos]

Thank you for taking the time out to deliver that info, much appreciated

 

[Minstral25]

IIRC from earlier in the thread the 387/2's are due to be completed by October this year for service entry by December 2015 timetable change. Is this still the plan or on time?

There was also a rumour of 26 more units (387/3) to start build in Sept 2015 as last ever Electrostars being built - did anyone buy these or will that order lapse?

The BML will be a very different railway in December (no 319s or 442s except Eastbourne) and then again 3 years later with 700s having taken over much of the services.

 

[BingBong50]

Will the 387/2's also be DC and AC assuming they are just for the Gatwick Express?

 

[asylumxl]

As the 319s get older and more unreliable, we need to keep moving them north! Surely we all know the rules by now?

It's not like there are a myriad of Electrostars being operated by Southern on the BML. Poor folk have no choice of trains at all.

 

[Class377/5]

Will the 387/2's also be DC and AC assuming they are just for the Gatwick Express?

The 387/2 are dual voltage and will be commissioned from Bletchley like the/1s.

IIRC from earlier in the thread the 387/2's are due to be completed by October this year for service entry by December 2015 timetable change. Is this still the plan or on time?

The 387/2 is supposed to be starting in May with the first units in service around October, tho I can't remember where the service date came from. The 387/2 fleet is required for the timetable change to allow the all day Gatwick Express trains to Brighton. However it may not require full fleet deployment if the Gatwick to Victoria is kept 442 initially.

There was also a rumour of 26 more units (387/3) to start build in Sept 2015 as last ever Electrostars being built - did anyone buy these or will that order lapse?

No such order was ever placed so it can't lapse. I believe it was generated by confusion of the Gatwick Express units as additional to the full 387 order not part of.

There's still a handful of units that can be ordered currently, seven I think, if the initial 387 order opitions hasn't lapsed yet.

Oh but Bombardier has been talking to someone about using Electrostar shells and if diesel engines can be fixed to give a DMU that suitable to be converted to EMU as electrification rolls out.

The BML will be a very different railway in December (no 319s or 442s except Eastbourne) and then again 3 years later with 700s having taken over much of the services.

The 700s won't be taking over everything. Places like Haywards Heath will still see more Electrostars through the station than Desiro Cities.

 

[talldave]

The BML will be a very different railway in December (no 319s or 442s except Eastbourne) and then again 3 years later with 700s having taken over much of the services.

Whilst I won't be sorry to see the back of the clapped out 442s, the Gatwick Express service itself will be ruined by running more trains to/from Brighton.

The whole point of an airport shuttle service is that it runs a dedicated point to point service to a reliable schedule. I cannot understand why anyone would pay a premium for a Gatwick Express service which arrives late at Gatwick like everything else and fails to arrive at London to schedule?

 

[Fincra5]

Whilst I won't be sorry to see the back of the clapped out 442s, the Gatwick Express service itself will be ruined by running more trains to/from Brighton.

The whole point of an airport shuttle service is that it runs a dedicated point to point service to a reliable schedule. I cannot understand why anyone would pay a premium for a Gatwick Express service which arrives late at Gatwick like everything else and fails to arrive at London to schedule?

We don;t know of the timetable fully, when the 387's arrive on Gatwick Express. We do know 2 ph will be Vic-gtw-btn (and V/v), and the other two just vic-gtw.

Peak hours are still in the works I think. Often though i've worked a 442 ontime to Gatwick, its after that the issues arrive. Croydon is very, very congested.

 

[Class377/5]

Whilst I won't be sorry to see the back of the clapped out 442s, the Gatwick Express service itself will be ruined by running more trains to/from Brighton.

The whole point of an airport shuttle service is that it runs a dedicated point to point service to a reliable schedule. I cannot understand why anyone would pay a premium for a Gatwick Express service which arrives late at Gatwick like everything else and fails to arrive at London to schedule?

There will be 2tph that go as far as Gatwick of peak with an extra 2tph to Brighton off peak. Simply put the demand is there to do this. Peak should be similar to today where trains do go through.

Bar Heathrow express (for now), all the airport express services serve other needs. Also why so anti to travelling south from Gatwick? They also need to reach Gatwick for work or leisure and they only have an 3tph service currently. Not everyone from Gatwick wants to go to London.

 

[physics34]

There will be 2tph that go as far as Gatwick of peak with an extra 2tph to Brighton off peak. Simply put the demand is there to do this. Peak should be similar to today where trains do go through.

Bar Heathrow express (for now), all the airport express services serve other needs. Also why so anti to travelling south from Gatwick? They also need to reach Gatwick for work or leisure and they only have an 3tph service currently. Not everyone from Gatwick wants to go to London.

Exactly. Im sure there is also some business for Brighton passengers to use it for Gatwick too and visa versa, but will there will special tickets for this???. Will people at Victoria for Brighton need to buy a special ticket to use this service though??

Its a shame Croydon is losing its non-stop to Brighton service, something that hasnt really been mentioned.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not sure what the arrangements will be made for ticketing. Currently anytime tickets are usable on Gatwick Express so its not just the GatEx only tickets that can be used now. But I'm no expert on ticketing matters.

 

[Fincra5]

Exactly. Im sure there is also some business for Brighton passengers to use it for Gatwick too and visa versa, but will there will special tickets for this???. Will people at Victoria for Brighton need to buy a special ticket to use this service though??

Its a shame Croydon is losing its non-stop to Brighton service, something that hasnt really been mentioned.

I'd imagine it the same as it is atm.. passengers from Brighton can use a SN only (etc), but if you are from London to Gatwick would still have to be GX prices -Any Permitted and the like.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm not sure what the arrangements will be made for ticketing. Currently anytime tickets are usable on Gatwick Express so its not just the GatEx only tickets that can be used now. But I'm no expert on ticketing matters.

Given that there are many on here who would argue, quite convincingly, that as Southern is a company and Gatwick Express is not, merely a brand of Southern, all Southern only tickets are valid on Gatwick Express methinks you are opening a (much debated previously) can of worms...

I'd imagine it the same as it is atm.. passengers from Brighton can use a SN only (etc), but if you are from London to Gatwick would still have to be GX prices -Any Permitted and the like.

Well, there is a debate over your statement anyway (not least because yorkie has regularly posted that Southern have backed down every time when challenged over Souithern tickets on GatEx services, which suggests to me that they are scared to try their luck in Court given the ambuguity of the issue) but...

If they are so damn stupid as to try that then they will deserve the media (followed almost immediately by political) firestorm which will descend on them!

The fun will really start when people buy Southern only Advance tickets from London to Brighton, starting at about £6 without a railcard, and try to end short at Gatwick. The first attempt at heavy penalties will have the Daily Mail et al all over Southern like a rash (and given that politicians never miss a band-wagon to jump on...)! Their chances of making such a policy stick - nil!

 

[Peter Sarf]

The whole point of an airport shuttle service is that it runs a dedicated point to point service to a reliable schedule. I cannot understand why anyone would pay a premium for a Gatwick Express service which arrives late at Gatwick like everything else and fails to arrive at London to schedule?

Thats what I think !. But apparently the GatEx fares do collect quite a lot of money.

 

[Wolfie]

Thats what I think !. But apparently the GatEx fares do collect quite a lot of money.

Yup, from those who know no better no doubt...

 

[Class377/5]

Given that there are many on here who would argue, quite convincingly, that as Southern is a company and Gatwick Express is not, merely a brand of Southern, all Southern only tickets are valid on Gatwick Express methinks you are opening a (much debated previously) can of worms...

Don't forget come July, Southern becomes just a brand with Govia Thameslink bring the company.

 

[physics34]

thought it was common knowledge that GatEx was just a rip off to get tourists and foreigners to pay extra

In the past, Normal services to Victoria from Gatwick Airport used to be advertised as terminating at Clapham Junction, literally forcing people who have landed at the airport to get on a Gat Ex service.

 

[Wolfie]

Don't forget come July, Southern becomes just a brand with Govia Thameslink bring the company.

I'm no expert in this area but..

So Southern and Gatwick Express will both be brands... but NRCOC refers to TOCs and there will only be one of those so surely exactly the same issue arises...

 

[talldave]

I'm negative about the Gatwick Express brand because it's no longer the dedicated point to point premium airport shuttle that it used to be - and yet it still (allegedly) commands a premium price (not from me I have to say - currently paying £12 for my GatEx trips and a Z16 Travelcard!).

You used to be able to walk on to the platform and get on a Gatwick Express knowing that your nice modern train would leave within the next 15 minutes. Now you have to wait on the platform like you would for any other service and when the clapped out 442 eventually arrives, it's already full and you have to fight to get on first in order to stand a chance of a seat.

It's such an embarrassment that the trains no longer reflect the branding of the station, ticket office and staff and don't even have the word Gatwick on them any more.

As I've suggested before, Southern need to decide if they're running a Gatwick Express shuttle service or a selection of Brighton trains, some of which run non-stop to/from Victoria?

 

[Fincra5]

I'm negative about the Gatwick Express brand because it's no longer the dedicated point to point premium airport shuttle that it used to be - and yet it still (allegedly) commands a premium price (not from me I have to say - currently paying £12 for my GatEx trips and a Z16 Travelcard!).

You used to be able to walk on to the platform and get on a Gatwick Express knowing that your nice modern train would leave within the next 15 minutes. Now you have to wait on the platform like you would for any other service and when the clapped out 442 eventually arrives, it's already full and you have to fight to get on first in order to stand a chance of a seat.

It's such an embarrassment that the trains no longer reflect the branding of the station, ticket office and staff and don't even have the word Gatwick on them any more.

As I've suggested before, Southern need to decide if they're running a Gatwick Express shuttle service or a selection of Brighton trains, some of which run non-stop to/from Victoria?

Outside of Peak the 442s wait at Gatwick as they always did. When the 387's come in you'll have a nice shiny modern train back...

I've heard the running pattern is, as mentioned, 2 GTW terminators and 2 Brighton Terminators. Brighton trains being VIC-GTW-BTN and V/V

@Wolfie. GX tickets are permitted on SN services always. But not V/V. The exceptions being on the peak trains which start/ terminate beyond Gatwick. Mainly where passegners board/ alight as (eg) Haywards Heath on a Gatwick Express service.

Advance tickets, such as Vic-BTN for £6 do not permit a break-in-journey and therefore if they tried to leave at Gatwick, as it cheap, they will be fined. AS that advance ticket is for that booked train (if applicable) to that destination.

 

[Stats]

You used to be able to walk on to the platform and get on a Gatwick Express knowing that your nice modern train would leave within the next 15 minutes. Now you have to wait on the platform like you would for any other service and when the clapped out 442 eventually arrives, it's already full and you have to fight to get on first in order to stand a chance of a seat.

In my experience the only extended GatEx service that occasionally leaves people standing from/to Gatwick is the 5 car 0850 from GTW, disruption excepted. If people are standing on other services then its because everybody is trying to cram into the middle 2 or 3 carriages of a 10 car train when there are seats elsewhere on the train.