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Split Ticketing Notice of Intention to Prosecute.

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DaveNewcastle

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This reply was directed at my enquiry, so the least I can do is to offer a response.
I disagree with najaB's apparent claim that a person who has been denied access to the full range of tickets is not permitted to catch the next available service at their interchange station. Nowhere is it stated that a person should extend their journey, and if you believe someone should, then that's your opinion, not fact.

Thank you for that reply. The position you describe as "then that's your opinion, not fact" is not, in fact, my opinion or fact. But thank you nevertheless.

I think my 'opinion' on gnik1's circumstances have not been deleted so won't need to be repeated. There was nothing in his/her post which suggested to me that the difficulty arose from an inability of the equipment at Bearstead (although I don't doubt that its ability is limited) or from an aversion to calling into the ticket office at the point where the first ticket had expired.

But for the avoidance of doubt, I will repeat the crucial element of my 'opinion', which in this instance I am unable to separate from 'fact', is that the rights bestowed by NRCoC 19 apply only to passengers who hold 'a combination of tickets'.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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We could reflect on the outcome of London and North Western Railway Co v Hinchcliffe [1903] 2 KB 42 in which Hinchcliffe noticed that 2 tickets for his journey from Huddersfield to Manchester would be cheaper than one. But he only bought the first ticket, as far as Staleybridge.

He offered to pay the fare for the second leg once he had begun that second leg, but the Inspector asked for the difference between the through fare and the amount already paid. The difference was only. 2 old pence, but often the clearest judgments come from cases where the amount is so small that only the law is left for consideration.

H refused. The Company sued and won. H Appealled. The Company's claim was upheld, referring to the word of the Conditions.

The Act and the Conditions have both changed since then, but in the absence of a Judgement under the current statute which deals with one ticket plus a promise to buy another which combination would be cheaper than one, then we should take note of this Judgement.
 
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Flamingo

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We could reflect on the outcome of London and North Western Railway Co v Hinchcliffe [1903] 2 KB 42 in which Hinchcliffe noticed that 2 tickets for his journey from Huddersfield to Manchester would be cheaper than one. But he only bought the first ticket, as far as Staleybridge.

He offered to pay the fare for the second leg once he had begun that second leg, but the Inspector asked for the difference between the through fare and the amount already paid. The difference was only. 2 old pence, but often the clearest judgments come from cases where the amount is so small that only the law is left for consideration.

H refused. The Company sued and won. H Appealled. The Company's claim was upheld, referring to the word of the Conditions.

The Act and the Conditions have both changed since then, but in the absence of a Judgement under the current statute which deals with one ticket plus a promise to buy another which combination would be cheaper than one, then we should take note of this Judgement.
Thanks Dave :D
 

Clip

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TVMs do not usually sell all tickets valid from that station to the final destination. Most will not sell monthly (+) seasons, or rangers/ rovers valid from that station to the final destination.

In general terms, it seems absurd, perverse and unjust that the holder of an A to B season ticket who wishes to travel from A to C, on the last train of the day, would be effectively forced to buy an new A to C ticket rather than a valid B to C single simply because:
1) the TVM at A will not sell the B to C single, and;
2) he/she cannot risk not finding the guard, or the guard being unable to sell the B to C ticket, before the train arrives at, or passes through, B.

If a train passes through the point to which a ticket was notionally valid, without stopping at any intermediate stations beforehand, would the RCCA offence still apply, given that there is no opportunity to leave the train at that point?

I love the way you have used the last service at night to make sure you can have such an absurd and perverse scenario but the passenger can indeed buy a ticket if they need to go to C by purchasing it on a website before they leave to travel.
 

crehld

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I love the way you have used the last service at night to make sure you can have such an absurd and perverse scenario but the passenger can indeed buy a ticket if they need to go to C by purchasing it on a website before they leave to travel.

It is neither absurd nor a perverse scenario. Admittedly these cases are rare but they are not beyond the realms of possibility. And not everyone has access to the internet, nor are passengers required to use the internet to book tickets.

Might I also add another potential absurd and perverse scenario... that plans can change en route? If I have a ticket for a journey from A to B, but then get a call from my mum who lives at C to say the cat's died or whatever, and decide to go and to see her, what's the harm in me approaching the guard before B to ask for an additional ticket from B to C?

Quite frankly I find it all rather disheartening that there seem to be a few members of staff whose blanket assumption is no ticket / split tickets = fraudster. It hardly paints a positive image of the industry, when for the most part staff are professional and provide an excellent service. Yes, there are undoubtedly those who will try and pull a fast one, and they should be dealt with appropriately. But to tarnish all passengers with this brush is just insulting. I don;t know if this is the intention of those people, but it certainly comes across this way - the danger of online communication I guess. If a passenger actively seeks to ensure they have an appropriate ticket (of which there are many possible permutations as outlined in the NRCoC) including actively approaching the guard, then it is not a vein promise of payment to be used as an excuse, but a clear intention to make the purchase of a valid ticket which the railway has been unable to offer. I would expect part of a guard's role would be to listen to what the passenger has to say, make a reasonable judgement and act accordingly, not apply a one-size-fits all approach, which clearly cannot work in real life, especially when you add such a complex fares structure to the mix.

Reading this section of the forum seems to highlight two extremes. On the one hand there are those who have been caught in the act and want to find a way to weasel out of responsibility. On the other hand we seem to have those whose default position is "guilty", regardless of any evidence to the contrary. The cases where there seem to be legitimate honest mistakes, those who have perhaps been incorrectly penalised or those who wish to make genuine queries, seem to get drowned out in all of this nonsense (which I will freely admit to contributing to!).
 

najaB

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Might I also add another potential absurd and perverse scenario... that plans can change en route? If I have a ticket for a journey from A to B, but then get a call from my mum who lives at C to say the cat's died or whatever, and decide to go and to see her, what's the harm in me approaching the guard before B to ask for an additional ticket from B to C?
Absolutely fine, there is no problem with that at all. To make a parallel to the OP's case, you would be asking for the B to C ticket when you arrive at C. This is a no-no as you overrode from B to C.
 

furlong

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We could reflect on the outcome of London and North Western Railway Co v Hinchcliffe [1903] 2 KB 42

On arrival at Stalybridge, without leaving the train, the passenger asked to buy the second ticket, from Stalybridge to Manchester.

The Act and the Conditions have both changed since then, but in the absence of a Judgement under the current statute which deals with one ticket plus a promise to buy another which combination would be cheaper than one, then we should take note of this Judgement.

Take note, yes; but also distinguish because the conditions that applied at that time explicitly outlawed the practice:

Parties cannot re-book at an intermediate station by the same train. No tickets will be issued after a train is in sight at an intermediate station.
 

Clip

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Might I also add another potential absurd and perverse scenario... that plans can change en route? If I have a ticket for a journey from A to B, but then get a call from my mum who lives at C to say the cat's died or whatever, and decide to go and to see her, what's the harm in me approaching the guard before B to ask for an additional ticket from B to C?

Quite frankly I find it all rather disheartening that there seem to be a few members of staff whose blanket assumption is no ticket / split tickets = fraudster.

Nothing, no one has said you can not have they? I certainly didn't say you couldn't go find the guard did I? Not sure anyone else has either. Seems you are just making things up now.


I don't think anyone else has said that no ticket/split ticket = fraudster either - I know I haven't. However there must be a very good reason as to why you don't have a ticket and I think we are all aware of that both staff and non staff or do you think differently and we should pad around being cosy to everyone who doesn't have a ticket nor a valid reason?

Split tickets are a symptom of the fare structure now and is such something that the railway has brought on itself. However the need to have a ticket or all of your tickets for your journey doesn't change and in the case of the OP they did in fact pass a reasonable opportunity to purchase the second ticket. They chose not to - the railway didn't make that choice for them so I don't see what your problem is with your magnificent scenarios of the worst kind.
 

jon0844

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This is what smartcards should hopefully eradicate the problem of journey plans changed en route. Just go to wherever you now want to go and it will work things out, so you'll in theory always have a valid ticket.

That's one of the benefits of Oyster and could really be a big benefit for the whole UK railway network one day.
 

bb21

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This is what smartcards should hopefully eradicate the problem of journey plans changed en route. Just go to wherever you now want to go and it will work things out, so you'll in theory always have a valid ticket.

That's one of the benefits of Oyster and could really be a big benefit for the whole UK railway network one day.

It will also eradicate the phenomenon of split-tickets.

Not sure it is necessarily a good thing under the current fare structure.
 

swt_passenger

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This is what smartcards should hopefully eradicate the problem of journey plans changed en route. Just go to wherever you now want to go and it will work things out, so you'll in theory always have a valid ticket.

That's one of the benefits of Oyster and could really be a big benefit for the whole UK railway network one day.

How will such a smart card deal with differently routed fares, if it just tries to 'work things out' at the destination as you imply?
 

Deerfold

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It will also eradicate the phenomenon of split-tickets.

Not sure it is necessarily a good thing under the current fare structure.

Again, it depends how it's implemented. An Oyster stye-system eliminated split ticketing unless you physically leave the train. A loaded-ticket system may still enable split ticketing to be used, depending how/if the ticket needs to be validated.
 

Haywain

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Well, Oyster has pink route validators. Of course, those only work if you actually leave the train at the via point.

Well, as through tickets are always valid on a direct train, regardless of routing, that wouldn't matter.
 

PermitToTravel

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There can be discounts for taking direct trains on long routes though, e.g. trains from Manchester Victoria to Leeds where the tickets available are routed VIA HEBDENBRIDGE or ANY PERMITTED, yet trains via Hebden Bridge or via Huddersfield are both direct.
 

jon0844

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How will such a smart card deal with differently routed fares, if it just tries to 'work things out' at the destination as you imply?

I suspect we'll see readers on trains, so that you'll be charged based on the service you use. (And if you decide to use first class on a particular service, you can tap to upgrade your ticket there and then too*).

That could mean a TOC-specific fare, a cheaper fare on a stopping metro service and a premium for Intercity.

I doubt any sort of intelligent charging could work any other way.

Failing to tap in on the specific service would presumably mean paying the highest possible fare.

And, yes, I am sure there will be some scope for fraud by tapping in on a slower train and jumping off to board a faster service etc.

Split ticketing may well end, but frankly at some point in the next 5, 10, 20 or 30 years we're going to have to wipe the slate clean and start again with ticketing and accept the inevitable downsides for what will hopefully be many upsides for the majority of people.

If regular users can get automatic or on-going discounts, that could be a bigger benefit anyway.

* One obvious concern for smart ticketing is that it would be near impossible to expect to load a card with prepay credit for what are obviously far more expensive tickets than in London. Nobody is likely to chuck on £500 or so to cover an anytime first class ticket on Intercity.

But, I suspect that if you didn't have enough money on the card in advance, didn't have some sort of credit agreement (subject to approval) or didn't pay upon arrival (perhaps having special machines rail-side that reads the card and works out how much to pay, which you can then do, then use the same card to exit the gate), you'd be treated like anyone else without a valid ticket using the current rules and powers.
 
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Flamingo

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Smart ticketing will only work to a point. There will invariably be a large number of people for whom it is not an option, as they are visitors, infrequent users, doing work-related journeys, have too poor credit to access it, or just refuse to use it on principal (like me with Oyster!).
 

najaB

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Smart ticketing will only work to a point. There will invariably be a large number of people for whom it is not an option, as they are visitors, infrequent users, doing work-related journeys, have too poor credit to access it, or just refuse to use it on principal (like me with Oyster!).
These may or may not be show stoppers:
  • visitors - there are visitor Oyster cards, no reason there couldn't be a visitor National Rail card. Or contactless payment for short, low value journeys.
  • infrequent users - a low cost card like the new Glasgow underground tickets gets around this. They are designed to be disposable, so in effect they cost the industry the same as paper tickets.
  • doing work-related journeys - my employer has told people not to buy paper travelcards in London, and to get Oyster cards instead. We can either use our personal card and just claim for work journeys by submitting a journey history with work trips highlighted, or get a PAYG card and claiming for top-ups.
  • have too poor credit to access it -if they can afford train tickets currently, then it won't be a problem as they'll pay for the journeys they actually make.
  • just refuse to use it on principal - Damned Luddites. Well, can't win them all! :D
 

andyb2706

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Not having read the entire thread some one might have said this. But was it not possible for the OP to attend a booking office the day before to purchase the tickets for the following day? I've done that loads of times.
 

najaB

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Not having read the entire thread some one might have said this. But was it not possible for the OP to attend a booking office the day before to purchase the tickets for the following day? I've done that loads of times.
Both this and online purchase were suggested as ways to avoid this problem in future.
 

jon0844

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Smart ticketing will only work to a point. There will invariably be a large number of people for whom it is not an option, as they are visitors, infrequent users, doing work-related journeys, have too poor credit to access it, or just refuse to use it on principal (like me with Oyster!).

I'm sure expensive paper tickets will remain, with the higher pricing incentivising people to switch - but also offering an alternative to adopting new technology (and perhaps having to buy a smartcard or pay a deposit).
 

DaveNewcastle

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We will have to agree to disagree then!
Rather than leaving an important question unanswered, it would be helpful to provide the authorities for each point of view. I've already provided the judgement in Hinchcliffe which has lot of similarities to the question raised here by gnik1.

But I've now taken the oportunity to read through "The Law of the Railway" by Leslie James BA, LLB, FCIT (1980), and find that he does seem to cover almost exactly the question we're facing here. I've copied the entire section below and hope that the publishers, Barry Rose Ltd, will forgive me:
i) A) The Passenger's Obligation to Pay the Proper Fare
The obligation to pay the proper fare, as we have already indicated, is normally met at the booking office when the ticket is delivered to the intending passenger.
At some railway stations, booking office facilities have been withdrawn or are only available at certain hours of the day. Arrangements have been made on certain routes for fares to be collected on the train during the journey. Not infrequently members of the public join trains without having previously obtained a ticket, either because they do not have time to obtain a ticket, or because they do not have the means to obtain one. They have no intent to avoid payment of the fare. They intend to purchase a ticket on the train, or to give their names and addresses and an undertaking to pay the fare at the first opportunity.
In any of these instances, the person travelling on the train is travelling under a standard contract of carriage, acceptance of which has been inferred from his conduct. He undertakes by implication to pay the fare as soon as may be. No precise time for this payment is presumed. All that can be inferred is that the implied undertaking will be discharged within a reasonable period of time.
Whether the terms of the contract are accepted explicitly or inferentially, the fare to be paid will be the fare for the whole journey, and by the train and in the carriage in which the person travels. So, if he pays for only part of the distance which he travels, or travels with a ticket which is not available on that day, or by that train, or, if he travels first class on a second class ticket, he will not have paid his fare: Gillingham v Walker (1881) 45 J.P. 470.
If a person obtains a cheap day excursion ticket from A to C and the ticket on the face of it, is not available intermediately from A to B, then the fare from A to B will not have been paid: R v Frere (1855) 4 E. & B. 598. See also the note on Byelaw 5 at p249.
Similarly, if the excursion fare from A to C together with the ordinary fare from C to D is less than the normal fare from A to D, a person who, intending to travel from A to D, purchases the excursion ticket and then seeks to pay the normal fare from C to D, will not have paid his fare from A to D within the meaning of the section: London & North Western Rly. Co. v Hinchcliffe [1963] 2 K.B. 32.
Then, again, the fare must be paid to the appropriate undertaking or their accredited agents. If a man buys a non-transferable ticket from another person, he will not have paid his fare so as to fulfil the terms of the contract: Reynolds v Beasley [1919] 1 K.B. 215.
If a fare is paid to a ticket inspector on the train, an inferred acceptance by conduct will then become an explicit one. So, also, if a person is permitted by a ticket inspector to join a train without a ticket or is issued with a voucher against a promise to pay the fare in due course, he will then be travelling by explicit agreement of the undertaking concerned.
Does this help?

- - - - -ADDITIONAL INFORMATION - - - -

We could also look at Covington v Wright (1963) All ER 212m which concerned a London bus passenger who had only paid for part of their journey. This judgement by Lord Chief Justice Parker, Ashworth J and Winn J is often cited in Railway disputes to clarify that the fare due should 'only' be the amount of the full journey "from the place from whence she started", and that where part of the fare has already been paid, then "pay his fare” must mean “make up the full payment of his fare” - this logic is used to reduce the amount due to just the through fare less whatever has already been paid. The same logic, in the case of 'split tickets', which would be cheaper than the through fare, give us the opposite result : the fare due is still the full though fare less whatever has already been paid, losing any 'saving' in attempting to 'split' tickets. This is the position which gnik1 found him/herself. As Leslie James put it above, the person in this situation is travelling on 'a standard contract'. Not under any 'special deal' or complex arrangement of tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I could add further authority to the question of travel on a ticket which does not cover the entire journey, we could recall that the most widely used incident of Criminal intent in travelling without having paid the fare due AND having passed an opportunity to pay is Corbyn v Saunders (1978) 1 WLR 400.
Whilst it is widely known that Corbyn passed a ticket office without paying, an action which has given us the concept of an opportunity to pay, it is less well known that Corbyn always had a ticket for the first leg of his journey PLUS a written note that he would pay whatever additional amount was due later, in respect of the second leg of his journies.

This is an illustration of a ticket for part of the journey plus a promise to pay for the remainder being used as the paradigm of fare evasion!

To PermitToTravel, island, najaB and others interested in how the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act S.103 might engage, there is a raft of decisions from the higher Courts which have captured the behavior described in this thread. For another instance, Great Western Railway v Pocock in which P travelled beyond the validity of his ticket "when he arrived at [destination on his ticket] the contract was at an end, and the Company had fulfilled their part of the contract, and P was not entitled to travel [further]".
 
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najaB

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DaveNewcastle, thank you for taking the time to find this information. I'm a mere layperson, so apologies in advance if I'm misunderstanding your posts, but it seems to me that there is sufficient case law to say that 'a ticket and a promise' is not sufficient to permit travel past the destination of the first ticket.

Having read your posts above, it seems to me that a passenger who purchases a ticket from A to B, intending to travel to C should quit the train at B if they haven't yet managed to purchase the ticket from B to C.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Yes. That is exactly my reading of the applicable law, (unless compelling exceptional circumstances are apparent).
Yorkie has an alternative understanding which I'd be intrigued to see explained as the further I look into the question, the less evidence I find which might support it.
 

MikeWh

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I must say that earlier I was bullishly believing that the lack of an opportunity to buy the second ticket before it was needed would be enough to make late payment permissable. But the depth of reasoning posted by DaveNewcastle would make me somewhat nervous now. In the exact scenario above I now feel that alighting at the split point is a necessity if the second ticket still hasn't been bought. You might get lucky, but there is no guarantee. If using the cheaper fares is really important then ordering online to pick up at the start would seem to be the safest method if the ticket office won't be open.
 

jkdd77

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Surely the passenger is not "travelling on a standard contract", but rather travelling under the NRCoC, and hence the relevance of ancient cases where the rights given to passenger under the contract in force at the time were far less than now is very limited?

To quote from DaveNewcastle's own post on the Fares Guide at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71833:
8.3.13 Obsolescent Law
The 19th Century legislation created a number of precedents which, at the time, will have assisted the Railway Companies in enforcing the Laws in a manner that was appropriate at the time; a time when passengers carried a lot of luggage and parcels, when there were numerous staff working on platforms and on trains, and when ticket selling was a simple personal and manual transaction over the counter at a Booking Office.

As discussed above, two of those Acts are still current statute and are used regularly: the RoRA 1889 and RCCA 1845 and some of the Judgements based on these Acts a hundred years ago are still cited as authorities today. However, there are also Judgements rising from those Acts which, due to changed circumstances and practices, would be in conflict with current practice or the Conditions of Carriage; there will have been no repeal of their Judgements, leaving scope for some uncertainty or errors of interpretation in a few situations.
 
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najaB

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Surely the passenger is not "travelling on a standard contract", but rather travelling under the NRCoC...
I this particular case the OP wanted to take advantage of Condition 19, but didn't hold the necessary "combination of tickets".

It has been argued that Condition 3 applied as they weren't able to purchase the B to C ticket at their origin station but I'm of the opinion that Condition 3 doesn't apply since (a) they could have purchased a A to C ticket but chose not to; and (b) they had 20+ minutes at the interchange station to attempt to purchase a ticket, but chose not to.
 

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Having read your posts above, it seems to me that a passenger who purchases a ticket from A to B, intending to travel to C should quit the train at B if they haven't yet managed to purchase the ticket from B to C.

This has always been my understanding, and I'm pleased to see it confirmed here. Only once have I been in this position myself, and I chose to alight from the train to buy another ticket in order to avoid the possibility of finding myself in trouble for travelling without a ticket from B to C. Though in that case I hadn't planned to travel to C originally, things changed between A and B.
 
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