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Oyster to Gatwick

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infobleep

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Rebecca Shepherd said:
Reigate MP calls for protest over reduced train services

Crispin Blunt has asked commuters to work from home on Monday June 1 to try and persuade Southern Railway to widen the Oyster zone out to Gatwick.

Crispin Blunt MP addressed the Reigate, Redhill and District Rail Users Association AGM on Thursday (March 12) to make the case for widening the Oyster zone out to Gatwick.

Mr Blunt shared the impatience of rail users who are paying for their season tickets but who are facing three years of reduced services while works to improve London Bridge is ongoing.

Since January, the 6.56am and 7.51am services from Redhill to London Bridge have been cut. The 8.02am and 8.31am services currently divert to Victoria, and this will remain the same.

The introduction of Oyster zonal fares would mean reduction on the cost of tickets....
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/reigate-mp-calls-protest-over-8842304

I didn't think Southern had much choice in the matters. I thought it was up to TfL to do this, including putting pressure on rail companies if they are reluctant to allow it.

I wasn't aware that Oyster would only apply for single and return journeys. Is that the case on the Watford line?
 
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Kite159

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http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/reigate-mp-calls-protest-over-8842304

I didn't think Southern had much choice in the matters. I thought it was up to TfL to do this, including putting pressure on rail companies if they are reluctant to allow it.

I wasn't aware that Oyster would only apply for single and return journeys. Is that the case on the Watford line?

What about the likes of Shenfield or Grays which sit in an extended Oyster zone?

Has the prices for Oyster to Gatwick been announced yet?
 

yorkie

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I think he's asking for Gatwick to be placed in Zone 6?

No chance of that happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What about the likes of Shenfield or Grays which sit in an extended Oyster zone?
What about them? Gatwick will be the same concept, but a higher price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has the prices for Oyster to Gatwick been announced yet?
Not yet, but Southern have already stated they will not be accepting it on their Gatwick Express branded trains. :roll:

The MP would have more credibility if he campaigned for Southern's Gatwick Express route to be included, and if he could state what the fare should be (clearly more than Zone 6, but obviously not as high as the DfT will have planned).
 

tsr

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I think he's asking for Gatwick to be placed in Zone 6?

No chance of that happening.

Quite. Zone 6 is quite large enough already in the Purley area. It could create some very odd pricing for journeys if it was extended all the way to Gatwick.

Not yet, but Southern have already stated they will not be accepting it on their Gatwick Express branded trains. :roll:

I was of the understanding that there is still a very eventual aspiration for this to be the case. I'm really not sure, though, how Southern would actually be happy for it to be implemented. Do you have an official source for that?

The MP would have more credibility if he campaigned for Southern's Gatwick Express route to be included, and if he could state what the fare should be (clearly more than Zone 6, but obviously not as high as the DfT will have planned).

Again, my understanding is that Gatwick Airport and subsequently all intermediate stations from Coulsdon South are soon to accept Oyster. I should imagine it would be sensible for a special fares zone to be put in place - as above, such as that at Watford Junction.

Bear in mind that without a lot of onboard checks, it will be very hard to verify if someone is touching in or out at Gatwick as a user of the Gatwick Express branded trains. Due to platform changes, peak hour services and engineering works, there are few ways that dedicated barriers or validators could be installed at Gatwick Airport alone.
 

MikeWh

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And prospective candidates come up with ill-thought-through ideas to try and win support.
I wasn't aware that Oyster would only apply for single and return journeys. Is that the case on the Watford line?

Would have been better if you or yorkie had included the next line in the quote:
Currently, Southern Railway is only planning to extend Oyster 'pay as you go' single and return journeys later this year.

Well someone doesn't know what they're talking about.:lol:

Oyster PAYG works entirely on single fares. Some journeys have differently priced routes, but other than that there are just two fares for any journey - peak or off-peak. Oyster can also hold season tickets, but they can only be travelcards. In the case of out-boundary seasons they generally don't have the full zonal range (usually just zones 1-6 and 2-6) because I think these products are something of a cludge.

Oyster only has a limited number (16?) of zones and each block of fares requires a separate zone. 1-9 are obvious, Watford Junction and Grays group are 10 (hence no travelcards from Grays because the prices don't match), Brentwood and Shenfield are certainly different and possibly Broxbourne too. There is already a commitment to add Dartford and Swanley as a new zone by next year, Epsom is also coming soon and as has been mentioned, Gatwick Airport is on the agenda, initially without the intermediate stations. I don't believe that there is any more room.

Gatwick is obviously a difficult one. I believe many people want it in principle, but there are lots of very difficult issues to sort out. Not least the different fares for Express/Normal assuming that Southern/Thameslink only will disappear soon with the TOC merger. It will also be very confusing to passengers to understand that they can use it to Coulsdon South or Gatwick, but not Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords or Horley. I can see these stumbling blocks preventing the extension until the next phase of Oyster is rolled out.

The next phase is transferring the processing from happening at the card/reader interface to the back office. Contactless already does this and it is planned for Oyster to do the same - when other issues have been resolved. It certainly needs to be done before Crossrail services start running to Reading because there is no way that the number of different fares required beyond West Drayton can be included in Oyster's zonal system.

And of course when the system allows touch in at Gatwick and touch out at Reading, will you be allowed to use the North Downs line via Guildford?
 

talldave

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Paper tickets will most likely still represent the cheapest option for those prepared to do their homework. I have a Southern key smartcard but have only ever used it once as paper is always cheaper for my travel.
 

Hadders

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Paper tickets will most likely still represent the cheapest option for those prepared to do their homework. I have a Southern key smartcard but have only ever used it once as paper is always cheaper for my travel.

One of the problems associated with a wider roll out of smart card PAYG schemes is that most people will be unaware of what they are paying for each journey because the price isn't as 'visible' as it is when you purchase each journey individually.

Most people believe what they read in the media and will think that the roll out of Oyster PAYG will reduce fares to Gatwick when in fact we know that won't happen.

Continued use of the trainline by passengers also demonstrates this.
 

infobleep

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And prospective candidates come up with ill-thought-through ideas to try and win support.


Would have been better if you or yorkie had included the next line in the quote:

Well someone doesn't know what they're talking about.[emoji38]

Oyster PAYG works entirely on single fares. Some journeys have differently priced routes, but other than that there are just two fares for any journey - peak or off-peak. Oyster can also hold season tickets, but they can only be travelcards. In the case of out-boundary seasons they generally don't have the full zonal range (usually just zones 1-6 and 2-6) because I think these products are something of a cludge.

Oyster only has a limited number (16?) of zones and each block of fares requires a separate zone. 1-9 are obvious, Watford Junction and Grays group are 10 (hence no travelcards from Grays because the prices don't match), Brentwood and Shenfield are certainly different and possibly Broxbourne too. There is already a commitment to add Dartford and Swanley as a new zone by next year, Epsom is also coming soon and as has been mentioned, Gatwick Airport is on the agenda, initially without the intermediate stations. I don't believe that there is any more room.

Gatwick is obviously a difficult one. I believe many people want it in principle, but there are lots of very difficult issues to sort out. Not least the different fares for Express/Normal assuming that Southern/Thameslink only will disappear soon with the TOC merger. It will also be very confusing to passengers to understand that they can use it to Coulsdon South or Gatwick, but not Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords or Horley. I can see these stumbling blocks preventing the extension until the next phase of Oyster is rolled out.

The next phase is transferring the processing from happening at the card/reader interface to the back office. Contactless already does this and it is planned for Oyster to do the same - when other issues have been resolved. It certainly needs to be done before Crossrail services start running to Reading because there is no way that the number of different fares required beyond West Drayton can be included in Oyster's zonal system.

And of course when the system allows touch in at Gatwick and touch out at Reading, will you be allowed to use the North Downs line via Guildford?
I guess they could easily exclude the North down line by not making it part of Oyster. Thus if anyone inadvertently does take that route to Reading, just make them by a new ticket.

Plenty fare scheme doesn't apply between Gatwick and Guildford for First Great Western services so in this case they wouldn't be able to issue one of those.

I wonder if Oyster being so handy to use might encourage more people to travel to Reading via London than via the North Downs Line.

By then though perhaps the key or similar will include the North Downs Line.
 

bb21

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It will also be very confusing to passengers to understand that they can use it to Coulsdon South or Gatwick, but not Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords or Horley. I can see these stumbling blocks preventing the extension until the next phase of Oyster is rolled out.

If it were to be rolled out to Gatwick, I think it will really have to be made available to those intermediate station.

Put them in the same zone as Gatwick, and if they complain of a fare rise, tell them they have the freedom of using paper tickets. There is a price to pay for convenience. <D
 

infobleep

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If it were to be rolled out to Gatwick, I think it will really have to be made available to those intermediate station.

Put them in the same zone as Gatwick, and if they complain of a fare rise, tell them they have the freedom of using paper tickets. There is a price to pay for convenience. <D
If they don't make it available for intermediate stations, they might have opportunities to issue penalty fare notices, so as long as they are not travel with First Great Western of course. <D
 

Stats

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It's a rather pointless protest since it is in the franchise agreement to "use reasonable endeavours" to extend Oyster zonal fares to the area bounded by Gatwick Airport by 30 September 2015 subject to GTR and the Secretary of State agreeing that it is not detrimental to the commercial position of the franchise.
 

JonathanH

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If it were to be rolled out to Gatwick, I think it will really have to be made available to those intermediate station.

Put them in the same zone as Gatwick, and if they complain of a fare rise, tell them they have the freedom of using paper tickets. There is a price to pay for convenience. <D

Compare the price of Anytime Day Singles to East Croydon from a number of locations:

Gatwick Airport £5.20
Horley £5.20
Salfords £5.20
Earlswood £5.20
Redhill £5.20
Merstham £5.20
Reigate £5.20

Already in the same zone it might seem?

Do you want to have a guess at what the Oyster fare to Zone 5 might be?

A familiar gripe from Redhill passengers is that tickets are not more expensive from Gatwick.
 

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There are currently some excellent value fares to Gatwick Airport. There's an Off-Peak Day Return from London St Pancras for £11 (rte Not Underground, valid from 0930 no evening restriction) dropping to £8 at the weekend. Expect the franchise merger to remove these good fares, and Oyster expansion to remove the best deals that remain!
 
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bb21

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Compare the price of Anytime Day Singles to East Croydon from a number of locations:

Gatwick Airport £5.20
Horley £5.20
Salfords £5.20
Earlswood £5.20
Redhill £5.20
Merstham £5.20
Reigate £5.20

Already in the same zone it might seem?

Do you want to have a guess at what the Oyster fare to Zone 5 might be?

A familiar gripe from Redhill passengers is that tickets are not more expensive from Gatwick.

Won't be the same for fares to Zone 1. Just compare London Terminals fares.
 

JonathanH

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Won't be the same for fares to Zone 1. Just compare London Terminals fares.

Given the way that Southern view the Redhill area as an easy revenue source and the need to surpress demand there, it wouldn't surprise me if they applied the Gatwick fares at Redhill. After all, there is no obligation to actually encourage use of Oyster and the differential is 'only' £5.
 

infobleep

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Compare the price of Anytime Day Singles to East Croydon from a number of locations:

Gatwick Airport £5.20
Horley £5.20
Salfords £5.20
Earlswood £5.20
Redhill £5.20
Merstham £5.20
Reigate £5.20

Already in the same zone it might seem?

Do you want to have a guess at what the Oyster fare to Zone 5 might be?

A familiar gripe from Redhill passengers is that tickets are not more expensive from Gatwick.
Well they are already in one zone together as far as going to East Croydon is concerned so they only need to create one additional zone covering these stations. It would have to be zone 7 as I can't skip zone numbers.
 

edwin_m

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Crispin Blunt has asked commuters to work from home on Monday June 1 to try and persuade Southern Railway to widen the Oyster zone out to Gatwick.

...

Mr Blunt shared the impatience of rail users who are paying for their season tickets ...

Commuters with season tickets pay regardless of whether they travel or not, so if they all work from home for a day Southern gets the same revenue without the bother of carrying the passengers. I bet Southern wouldn't be too upset to have a few more "protests" like that...
 

JaJaWa

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Not yet, but Southern have already stated they will not be accepting it on their Gatwick Express branded trains. :roll:

Where did you get this information from? That's contrary to what I've heard.
 

londonbridge

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And of course when the system allows touch in at Gatwick and touch out at Reading, will you be allowed to use the North Downs line via Guildford?

I guess when the map is redrawn/republished they'd just add the North Downs line to the list of exclusions along with Hayes And Harlington to Heathrow, etc.
 

londonbridge

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It's a rather pointless protest since it is in the franchise agreement to "use reasonable endeavours" to extend Oyster zonal fares to the area bounded by Gatwick Airport by 30 September 2015 subject to GTR and the Secretary of State agreeing that it is not detrimental to the commercial position of the franchise.

Only five weeks away! Any news, progress or updates?
 

MikeWh

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I have no official update, but I'm sure that the slippage in introducing back-office Oyster processing is the stumbling block. Without that there are not enough fare zones to cover the intermediate stations. The conundrum is whether to introduce airport only fares like the HS1 STP-SFA and suffer the confusion of Oyster not being accepted intermediately, or wait for the back office to catch up and miss the 'deadline' for the airports. My personal view is that they should wait.
 

TUC

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The problem is that there are multiple journey flows that are just outside the Oyster area because they are just outside Greater London. Given TfL's wider territorial ambitions, I agree that the issue needs looking at, but it needs to be done in a systematic way, not just for ad hoc special pleading.
 
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It's a rather pointless protest since it is in the franchise agreement to "use reasonable endeavours" to extend Oyster zonal fares to the area bounded by Gatwick Airport by 30 September 2015 subject to GTR and the Secretary of State agreeing that it is not detrimental to the commercial position of the franchise.

The 'commercial position' of the TSGN franchise will be of particular interest to the DfT/Secretary of State as fares revenue for TSGN passes to the government rather than the Train Operating Company. It is likely that the DfT will be scrutinising TSGN's business case to ensure that revenue risk is kept to a minimum. Perhaps the 30 September date could be extended with the DfT's agreement.
 

swt_passenger

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Well they are already in one zone together as far as going to East Croydon is concerned so they only need to create one additional zone covering these stations. It would have to be zone 7 as I can't skip zone numbers.

Just saw this for the first time.

They now do skip zone numbers. If you look at the zones out towards Shenfield (which has TOC fares only I think); they did just that only a few months ago.

Harold Wood is in Zone 6, and then Brentwood is in Zone 9, with Zones 7 and 8 passed through 'non-stop', as it were.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

Much earlier though, Zone 9 has effectively been ignored on the way to Watford Jn, although not shown on the map.
 

infobleep

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The guard on my train just made a long announcement about people using Oyster cards beyond East Croydon and if they alight at Gatwick Airport they will face a £25 fine + cost of ticket. However if they come to see him now he can deal with it and they won't be fined.

He also said people with contactless wouldn't be fined, only those holding Oyster cards. I wasn't aware contactless had reached Gatwick Airport until then.

What other stations is it valid to on the Brighton mainline?
 

MikeWh

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He also said people with contactless wouldn't be fined, only those holding Oyster cards. I wasn't aware contactless had reached Gatwick Airport until then.

It hasn't as far as I know.
 

JaJaWa

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I have no official update, but I'm sure that the slippage in introducing back-office Oyster processing is the stumbling block. Without that there are not enough fare zones to cover the intermediate stations. The conundrum is whether to introduce airport only fares like the HS1 STP-SFA and suffer the confusion of Oyster not being accepted intermediately, or wait for the back office to catch up and miss the 'deadline' for the airports. My personal view is that they should wait.

From what I've heard from GTR and the airports, they will be introducing Oyster to the airports (Gatwick and Luton Parkway) this September, and then to intermediate stations in 2016 when more zones are possible.
 

MikeWh

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From what I've heard from GTR and the airports, they will be introducing Oyster to the airports (Gatwick and Luton Parkway) this September, and then to intermediate stations in 2016 when more zones are possible.

Oh dear! I can see lots of new threads in disputes and prosecutions over this.
 
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