Open Access: Blackpool to Euston

[Masboroughlad]

I am sure somebody will explain why to me......

Alliance Rail have recently had an OA bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the GNWR brand rejected.

Alliance Rail have just submitted an OA application bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the Grand Central brand.

If the GNWR bid got rejected, why wouldn't the Grand Central one be too?

 

[TheGrew]

Potentially asked for different paths? Would be difficult to know without reading through both proposals.

 

[Busaholic]

I am sure somebody will explain why to me......

Alliance Rail have recently had an OA bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the GNWR brand rejected.

Alliance Rail have just submitted an OA application bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the Grand Central brand.

If the GNWR bid got rejected, why wouldn't the Grand Central one be too?

Perhaps a lick of paint solves everything.

 

[pemma]

Do you have a link for a new application? I can't see one on the ORR website.

 

[Jonny]

I am sure somebody will explain why to me......

Alliance Rail have recently had an OA bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the GNWR brand rejected.

Alliance Rail have just submitted an OA application bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the Grand Central brand.

If the GNWR bid got rejected, why wouldn't the Grand Central one be too?

Perhaps they are trying again - although if they are going to duplicate franchised services they are unlikely to succeed, especially as VT (west coast) are likely to run more once Blackpool North is wired for OLE.

 

[The Planner]

Seems a bit bizarre considering Euston becomes a building site during 2017, cant see ORR saying yes this time either.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's on the Alliance web site: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/2015/...rvices-proposed-between-blackpool-and-london/

Grand Central, part of the Arriva Group, today reveals proposals to introduce regular train services between Blackpool and London from 2017
......
The key features and benefits of the Grand Central service are:
◦Six return trains a day between London and Blackpool – starting in 2017
◦Investment in a fleet of new 6 coach Alstom Pendolino trains
◦The creation of more than 120 new jobs
◦Significant wider economic benefits across the towns and cities served, particularly Blackpool which has recently received Enterprise Zone status
...
Grand Central will operate services on behalf of Alliance Rail

Looks just like one half of the previous (failed) Alliance bid, but operated by GC.
Nothing mentioned about calling pattern. Nothing on the ORR web site on this yet.

 

[D60]

My understanding is that when a bid for paths for Blackpool to Euston was being made 2 or 3 years previously, such a bid was rejected due to shortage of available paths on the WCML (also for a Shrewsbury to Euston bid).. I used to use this fact in evidence to support the 'lack of capacity' justification for a duplicate North to South rail link...
Can't remember whether the bidder then was VT, or DB-owned Alliance Rail, or both..

 

[Class 170101]

The paths terminated at Queen's Park London as I recall.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Nothing mentioned about calling pattern. Nothing on the ORR web site on this yet.

Not entirely surprising, given that ORR HQ is currently closed as a result of the Kingsway fire! Details can be found here.

Under the circumstances, I suspect that keeping the website updated isn't exactly high on the list of priorities.

 

[infobleep]

Not entirely surprising, given that ORR HQ is currently closed as a result of the Kingsway fire! Details can be found here.

Under the circumstances, I suspect that keeping the website updated isn't exactly high on the list of priorities.

One of the problems of running your own e-mail server. My work place moved to Google but they could have moved to Microsoft 365 which also would have been externally provided.

 

[WatcherZero]

It's on the Alliance web site: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/2015/...rvices-proposed-between-blackpool-and-london/


Looks just like one half of the previous (failed) Alliance bid, but operated by GC.
Nothing mentioned about calling pattern. Nothing on the ORR web site on this yet.

Funnily enough when I tried to access the ORR website there was a message that they were currently without external communications because of a fire.

 

[pemma]

The paths terminated at Queen's Park London as I recall.

GNWR put in application for a path every 2 hours from Leeds-Huddersfield-Warrington-Queens Park and for a path every 2 hours from Blackpool-Queens Park. They also applied for an hourly Queens Park-Euston path which presumably was in the hope the whole application wouldn't be rejected just on the grounds of Euston works.

 

[Tony2215]

What route will these open access trains be taking into London?

 

[pemma]

What route will these open access trains be taking into London?

Given they are saying they'll use Pendolinos there's not a lot of choice of routes, only a choice of calling patterns.

 

[pemma]

Track access application:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...15/gnwr (as grand central) model contract.pdf

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...al) blackpool form p for consultation (2).pdf

Standard calling pattern Crewe, Preston and Poulton-le-Fylde only with additional calls on some services at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Kirkham & Wesham.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Track access application:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...15/gnwr (as grand central) model contract.pdf

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...al) blackpool form p for consultation (2).pdf

Standard calling pattern Crewe, Preston and Poulton-le-Fylde only with additional calls on some services at Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Kirkham & Wesham.

I should think this will force DfT to table what it wants from the next ICWC franchise on the Fast lines from 2017.
Otherwise, NR/ORR won't be able to review the overall demand for paths.

 

[The Planner]

Considering the only logical off peak path they can go for out of Euston is xx.33 then it is no different to any other bid they have made I suspect.

 

[swt_passenger]

This statement in the TAA seems to answer the original poster's main question:

This application represents a reduction in the scale of the previous application made and focuses on providing a regular service between Blackpool and London only. The services sought here replicate the rights sought in the application made by GNWR in June 2014.
Network Rail agreed to sell the London – Blackpool rights in relation to the June 2014 application.

They must be confident that Blackpool alone is possible?

 

[glbotu]

What happened to a previously accepted application to Queen's Park, but without approval through to Euston. There was talk of a Camden Road terminus or something? Not that this would be practicable, just wondering what happened.

 

[pemma]

What happened to a previously accepted application to Queen's Park, but without approval through to Euston.

Previous application was a 2 hourly Euston/Queen's Park - Blackpool service interworked with a 2 hourly Euston/Queen's Park - Leeds via Warrington service.

Network Rail accepted it, ORR rejected it. There was quite a bit of objection that Warrington-Leeds wouldn't work alongside North TPE enhancements and as it was only 2 hourly it couldn't replace a proposed North TPE service altogether and still allow a consistent timetable. ORR also accepted Virgin's view that it was take too much existing revenue opposed to generating new revenue - but it only just failed that in ORR's view.

 

[Mark62]

I do believe that not too many years ago Blackpool had a regular service to London. They also had full length trains in the summer to Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, newcastle etc etc. one through five coach DMU train to London is hardly an improvement on what ran before privatisation

 

[pemma]

I do believe that not too many years ago Blackpool had a regular service to London. They also had full length trains in the summer to Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, newcastle etc etc. one through five coach DMU train to London is hardly an improvement on what ran before privatisation

The most recent Blackpool-London services were the North Western Trains ones operated by 158s which Virgin managed to get rid of by increasing their competition protection.

 

[The Planner]

Was that Virgin or was it the moderation of competition clauses that were put in? different things.....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The most recent Blackpool-London services were the North Western Trains ones operated by 158s which Virgin managed to get rid of by increasing their competition protection.

The GW Holdings business case for NWT's London services was always pants, and the trains were duly withdrawn when First took over FNW.
The idea of a 2-car class 158 90mph service on the southern WCML was ludicrous.
Some joint deal with Virgin was struck for North Wales services, but for some reason not for Blackpool.
Virgin didn't want the costs of loco haulage off the wires for Blackpool/Shrewsbury, but they did briefly run an off-peak HST to Blackpool until about 2001.
They interworked with the Holyhead services, and then were diverted to Manchester until the Pendolinos came in.

 

[pemma]

The idea of a 2-car class 158 90mph service on the southern WCML was ludicrous.

At that time the loco-hauled Virgin services were limited to 110mph and there were plenty of 321s operating on the southern WCML at no more than 100mph with a lot less services overall, so a 90mph 158 didn't seem that ludicrous.

 

[pemma]

Consultation responses are on the Office of Rail and Road's website (as they now known.)

http://orr.gov.uk/what-and-how-we-r...-applications/new-contracts-section-17-and-18

TfL have raised concerns about terminating services at Queens Park. Virgin and LM have given the expected response - concerns over whether their PPM and future service plans will be affected.

 

[backontrack]

Surely it would make more sense to use bi-mode units, DMUs or locos and run into Blackpool South? There's more demand in Lytham, St Annes, Ansdell etc. that is untapped. This would also connect with Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Blackpool Airport (the latter at Squires Gate).

 

[DarloRich]

Surely it would make more sense to use bi-mode units, DMUs or locos and run into Blackpool South? There's more demand in Lytham, St Annes, Ansdell etc. that is untapped. This would also connect with Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Blackpool Airport (the latter at Squires Gate).

may I ask if this is a serious suggestion?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well, the South Fylde branch is fully single-track so good luck getting it to fit (unless you messed about with the local service as and when, again good luck in this age of clockface timetabling and the (rightful) noise Northern would make). Also, going to North give you flexibility (double track and six platforms), a service to Poulton, and makes it more attractive to the sizeable population along the North Fylde Coast, at the likes of Thornton-Cleveleys and Fleetwood.

Also, how many people from London or wherever are going to do to the likes of Blackpool Airport, St Annes or Ansdell? Pleasure Beach I can see there'd be some call for, however I doubt enough to justify the meddling necessary to accommodate the London service, and South station demand is probably just as easily covered by North.

A better development for the South Fylde line would be the reinstatement of the loop at Lytham (I think it was) and a proper half hourly service ex-Preston. Alas I believe the local CRP didn't object to the flogging of railway land necesary to reinstate the loop a few years ago. Genius.