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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

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bunnahabhain

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The Guard does a lot more than checking tickets and kicking people out of First Class. That's what they do when there is nothing more important (for more important, read anything else) going on. I really thought that the forum members on this site would have grasped that by now, but a significant number seem to still be getting the role of the Train Guard and the role of an Assistant Ticket Examiner mixed up.
Amen brother. Does the driver really want to be bothered by a punter locking themselves in a toilet and pushing the passcom when he's concentrating on stopping for a red signal during leaf fall with a thick morning mist lingering in the air? I think not.
 
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Flamingo

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The motivation behind DOO is not because it is better, it's because it is cheaper. I have never heard it described as a safer method of work.

Should there be acceptance of a method of working that can not be shown to be safer? If the best that can be said for it is there haven't been too many problems, is that good enough?

Don't forget, when there is a problem, it will be some poor sod of a driver who will be up on a manslaughter charge, and some family asking why there is an empty seat at the table. Will that be worth the saving?
 
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bunnahabhain

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Have I said that?

Good grasp of how to use the quote function too.
You seem to be be infering that, yes.

Also no worries, I push the buttons the administrators provided for me, quite how that occured in a completely different post I don't know.
 

Clip

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I haven't said either way so stop making out that I have or may have inferred it.

In this thread all I said was

but given the amount of DOO that is around and how long it has now been on our railway for there really isn't any need for your hypothetical question about it.

I don't have influence on the decision making of whether lines should go to DOO so what I think is irrelevant Im just merely pointing out that inventing hypothetical situations and what ifs are useless when there is already a safety case for DOO.

If the stark facts of what I have just written are a bit much for you then I am sorry but it is the truth and you know it is.
 

bunnahabhain

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I haven't said either way so stop making out that I have or may have inferred it.

In this thread all I said was



I don't have influence on the decision making of whether lines should go to DOO so what I think is irrelevant Im just merely pointing out that inventing hypothetical situations and what ifs are useless when there is already a safety case for DOO.

If the stark facts of what I have just written are a bit much for you then I am sorry but it is the truth and you know it is.
DOO operates in a metro and suburban environment where assistance isn't going to be very far away. I wouldn't want to be stuck at Corrour with a dead driver on a DOO service on the last train of the day with no GSMR available, you could be stuck for hours with no chance of contacting anybody.
 

Flamingo

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I haven't said either way so stop making out that I have or may have inferred it.

In this thread all I said was



I don't have influence on the decision making of whether lines should go to DOO so what I think is irrelevant Im just merely pointing out that inventing hypothetical situations and what ifs are useless when there is already a safety case for DOO.

If the stark facts of what I have just written are a bit much for you then I am sorry but it is the truth and you know it is.

I don't know it's the truth at all.

I haven't had a chance to read any analysis of incidents at the platform-train interface, and a comparison between DOO at unmanned stations, Driver-operated with platform staff, guard-operated with platform staff, and guard-operated at unmanned stations.

I'm not even sure where the figures would be found.

But I bet they are there, and if they showed that DOO was safer, the DfT would be shouting them from the rooftops.
 

Clip

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DOO operates in a metro and suburban environment where assistance isn't going to be very far away. I wouldn't want to be stuck at Corrour with a dead driver on a DOO service on the last train of the day with no GSMR available, you could be stuck for hours with no chance of contacting anybody.

Well I don tthink anyone would like to be stuck on a train anywhere with a dead driver not matter where it was do you? But with your obvious choice of station out in the sticks to try and prove some point( how there would be a concrete block dropped through the drivers window there I would never know) its worth pointing out that if you were there then Im pretty sure you would be able to get help in the station house guest house ;)

I don't know it's the truth at all.

I haven't had a chance to read any analysis of incidents at the platform-train interface, and a comparison between DOO at unmanned stations, Driver-operated with platform staff, guard-operated with platform staff, and guard-operated at unmanned stations.

I'm not even sure where the figures would be found.

But I bet they are there, and if they showed that DOO was safer, the DfT would be shouting them from the rooftops.

And neither have I but none of this deflects from the fact that a safety case was made for DOO and that DOO still operates to this day.
 

Clip

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Yup the situation just gets more outlandish by the post doesn't it.
 

LowLevel

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FGW proposing to potentially run a DOO train from London to Plymouth if they can't be arsed to find a train manager is stupid. That clause needs torpedoing. The train manager needs to be a mandatory member of staff with full training regardless of whether they work the doors or not - and as Virgin East Coast seem to be proposing to maintain the role of the guard having said they have no intention of amending it, why is it proposed to change on Great Western ?

DOO trains run on the principle of 'let's send someone to have a look as no one is responding'. It's one thing in a metro area with lots of trains and folk about but quite another in the middle of a field with an hourly service each way like the Berks and Hants beyond Bedwyn or out in the Cotswolds when you're stuck with a problem.

Otherwise little issues like your driver being electrocuted by the OHLE when examining the line, or copping a breezeblock through the windscreen, or going to pieces having hit a car on AHB at line speed or hit a person, or having a heart attack at the controls, become big ones.

Never mind Doris being stuck in the bog till the next stop or ****ed up Pete going mental about someone sitting in his reserved seat as you've gone without the train manager as there's too many people on annual leave.

In some of our rural areas getting staff out to routine issues can take literally all day.
 
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muz379

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Everybody always goes on about the cost savings of DOO as if they are absolutely guaranteed . Is it going to save any money though .
In the short term it will cost a lot to implement in terms of staff training , infrastructure upgrades but is that going to lead to any ongoing saving in the cost of operations .

Aslef will want more money for drivers + another aspect to driver training and ongoing competency assessment
RMT will want more money for dispatchers + More dispatchers will be required
RMT will want to retain pay for the on board staff

I dont think that once the drivers have been paid extra , dispatchers have been paid more and numbers increased and a decent salary set for an on board member of staff there is going to be much of an ongoing saving even taking into account the supposed revenue increases

The costs you cant substantiate need taking into account , increased delay minutes because of slow passenger boarding and Drivers having to reset pascoms and call for aid alarms in toilets

But a guard with a whistle can gee them along a bit saving a lot more time than the driver doing the doors and having to wait for the last dawdler to get on board in their own time, a good strong blow on the whistle can save 20 (or more) second a station and that adds up!
This is one thing I do wonder about , when you get someone holding the door for their mates the guard can blow their whistle and shout for them to move and then if worst comes to worse run down and tell them to stop being stupid .
Whats the drive going to be expected to do just sit there and wait for the person to stop holding the door ?

Often a guard can save a lot more than even 20 seconds when its busy shouting for passengers to make use of all of the doors on the train .
 

Carlisle

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East Coast seem to be proposing to maintain the role of the guard having said they have no intention of amending it, why is it proposed to change on Great Western ?
.

No surprise there really as Stagecoach rightly or wrongly has never shown any interest in operating DOO trains on any of their franchises since they abandoned their SWT DOO plans around 1997,other companies maybe see things differently
 
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SpacePhoenix

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No surprise there really as Stagecoach rightly or wrongly has never shown any interest in operating DOO trains on any of their franchises since they abandoned their SWT DOO plans around 1997,other companies maybe see things differently

Do any of SWT's "Metro" services have or ever had guards (I think it's all the routes they use 455s on)?
 

jopsuk

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SWT have guards on all services, including inner suburban. As far as I'm aware they have a grade called "non commercial guard" (or something similar), only found on these routes, who have no revenue duties- purely the safety of those busy services.
 

Mojo

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Do any of SWT's "Metro" services have or ever had guards (I think it's all the routes they use 455s on)?

Yes, all South West Trains services (whilst conveying passengers) have a guard.
 

TheJRB

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So a lot of people think it is safer for a driver looking at a screen to open and close the doors remotely, than have a member of staff who's job is walking up and down the train, visibly inspecting and alert for problems? Not to mention dealing with passengers in any on- board emergency, or when the driver is incapicated.

Not every safety incident results in a fatality. What are the real figures for near-misses in DOO land, I wonder.

The Guard does a lot more than checking tickets and kicking people out of First Class. That's what they do when there is nothing more important (for more important, read anything else) going on. I really thought that the forum members on this site would have grasped that by now, but a significant number seem to still be getting the role of the Train Guard and the role of an Assistant Ticket Examiner mixed up. Some of those confused about the different responsibilities attached to each role appear to be rail staff.
I for one most certainly appreciate a guard being present. Those who say that the door responsibilities take up too much time are simply wrong. I was getting a first class upgrade on a SWT service while we were approaching Clapham Junction recently. The guard had to go and sort out the doors but he was back in a minute, hardly an inconvenience to passengers like it's been made out to be at time.

By and large I understand that DOO services are safe. I certainly have never felt unsafe on Southeastern High Speed services which are DOO but with a Train Manager. Now quite pertinent to this thread is the fact that on the Javelins, the train can't go unless a TM is onboard, even though it's purely a customer facing role.

One time however, I was on a 12 car Javelin which stopped at Canterbury West. Canterbury West can only take 8 cars in both directions but all 12 were released. Thankfully I think nobody accidentally got out beyond the end of the platform but I do wonder if such a thing would happen (or rather perhaps go unnoticed) if a guard was onboard.

What I think we can mostly agree on is that DOO services that really are driver only with no other staff on the whole train are not such good news for everybody involved. Thankfully it's non existent in my area but on a lot of suburban services in London it seems that you can travel a heck of a lot without coming across a single member of staff on the train. So I'd much rather travel late at night on a Southeastern High Speed service where you know you're going to see the TM on your journey than I would on a Metro area train where you can be pretty sure you'd be lucky to even get an RPI.
 

Bletchleyite

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I for one most certainly appreciate a guard being present. Those who say that the door responsibilities take up too much time are simply wrong. I was getting a first class upgrade on a SWT service while we were approaching Clapham Junction recently. The guard had to go and sort out the doors but he was back in a minute, hardly an inconvenience to passengers like it's been made out to be at time.

Depends on the number of stops. It really does get disruptive on, say, busy Northern services stopping every couple of minutes. On many occasions passengers have to wait for the transaction to finish for the doors to be released. That, however, would be solved by driver-released doors as used on VT on the Voyagers (I can't remember about Pendolinos).

What I think we can mostly agree on is that DOO services that really are driver only with no other staff on the whole train are not such good news for everybody involved. Thankfully it's non existent in my area but on a lot of suburban services in London it seems that you can travel a heck of a lot without coming across a single member of staff on the train. So I'd much rather travel late at night on a Southeastern High Speed service where you know you're going to see the TM on your journey than I would on a Metro area train where you can be pretty sure you'd be lucky to even get an RPI.

It certainly does have benefits in terms of how safe things feel as well as customer services. Though, just as SBB and fGW do at times by substituting a DOO set for a normal one, I'm certain passengers would prefer a service to run DOO rather than not at all in the event of a guard not being available - though it shouldn't be used as an excuse to diagram guards more tightly and increase the risk of this occurring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One time however, I was on a 12 car Javelin which stopped at Canterbury West. Canterbury West can only take 8 cars in both directions but all 12 were released.

I've seen a guard do that on LM (and quickly close them again).
 
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yorkie

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Do any of SWT's "Metro" services have or ever had guards (I think it's all the routes they use 455s on)?
They have non-commercial Guards.
I for one most certainly appreciate a guard being present. Those who say that the door responsibilities take up too much time are simply wrong. I was getting a first class upgrade on a SWT service while we were approaching Clapham Junction recently. The guard had to go and sort out the doors but he was back in a minute, hardly an inconvenience to passengers like it's been made out to be at time.
Take up too much time to do what? If you mean take up too much time to sell tickets (which is what you go on to talk about), it does appear to be the view of SWT that they are too busy with doors to sell tickets on inner suburban trains, as they have non-commercial Guards.

Your example doesn't say much, and what if you were getting off at Clapham Jn?
By and large I understand that DOO services are safe. I certainly have never felt unsafe on Southeastern High Speed services which are DOO but with a Train Manager. Now quite pertinent to this thread is the fact that on the Javelins, the train can't go unless a TM is onboard, even though it's purely a customer facing role.

One time however, I was on a 12 car Javelin which stopped at Canterbury West. Canterbury West can only take 8 cars in both directions but all 12 were released. Thankfully I think nobody accidentally got out beyond the end of the platform but I do wonder if such a thing would happen (or rather perhaps go unnoticed) if a guard was onboard.
Such incidents have happened when a Guard was onboard.

What I think we can mostly agree on is that DOO services that really are driver only with no other staff on the whole train are not such good news for everybody involved.
That's not what DOO actually means, and is not what is being proposed.

Thankfully it's non existent in my area but on a lot of suburban services in London it seems that you can travel a heck of a lot without coming across a single member of staff on the train.
You will be more likely to come across on-board staff on Southeastern High Speed and First Scotrail Glasgow area electric DOO services, than you will on SWT inner suburban services which have non-commercial guards.
So I'd much rather travel late at night on a Southeastern High Speed service where you know you're going to see the TM on your journey than I would on a Metro area train where you can be pretty sure you'd be lucky to even get an RPI.
I completely agree; I'd also much rather travel late at night on a DOO Southeastern High Speed service where you know you're going to see the on board manager on your journey than I would on a SWT Metro area train (with non-commercial Guard) where you can be pretty sure you will never see an RPI.
 

LeeLivery

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No surprise there really as Stagecoach rightly or wrongly has never shown any interest in operating DOO trains on any of their franchises since they abandoned their SWT DOO plans around 1997,other companies maybe see things differently

I think Stagecoach realise how popular guards are with passengers; something the other operators try to ignore and it wouldn't do SWT any PR favours to go DOO. I too prefer having guards on all services, something I don't have on my local services. As for the idea that DOO is only used where staff is available at stations is rubbish. Southeastern is the perfect example of not seeing a single member of staff around for a long time in the suburban area, especially after 18:00. In London at least, we are hearing more and more calls for more staff on board, DOO is not popular and I think that in the future DOO could be reversed so passengers feel more secure and to check tickets (most SE stations are open and ticket barriers are pointless at stations without staffing first to last). Even if the guard doesn't have door duties, bringing a member of staff back would be a winner.

Honestly I doubt Southeastern RPIs even exist. Never in 10 years have I seen one. To me they are a mythical story.
 
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VP185

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I would think if First Group are able to achieve these changes without a lengthy period of industrial strife they will be well and truly back in the good books of the DFT

Judging by the wording of the letter, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a sweetener in there if First can get this through without industrial action, another franchise extension?

In cab CCTV is all well and good to control the doors but once the doors and closed and the train starts to move the CCTV images will switch off, what happens if someone comes into contact with the train after that? Currently the TM watches the length of the train until it has all left the platform.
 

craigybagel

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When I did my guards training, the classroom part took 9 weeks. Of that, would anyone like to guess how much time was spent on tickets? 1 week. Revenue might be the most visible part of our job, but it is a long way from being the most important.......
 

Bletchleyite

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In cab CCTV is all well and good to control the doors but once the doors and closed and the train starts to move the CCTV images will switch off, what happens if someone comes into contact with the train after that? Currently the TM watches the length of the train until it has all left the platform.

...except where there is no droplight in the cab door, e.g. Merseyrail 507s and 508s, or near enough every type of unit with sliding/plug doors when dispatched from a passenger door, e.g. Voyagers and Pendolinos, Desiros etc.

Notably, in some countries the driver's mirror remains open after departure so they can check exactly that.
 
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Hadders

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Great Northern run 12 car DOO services using 3x365's and 3x321's with only the driver on board and have done for years. I think 12 car trains have to be manually dispatched at stations though.

I'm not qualified to be able to comment on the rights and wrongs of DOO but I can see why the TOC's want to move towards it.
 

387star

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Thameslink/great northern C2C London Overground and abellio greater greater anglia must be the biggest operators of DOO in relation to company size excluding ScotRail indeed none have guards except rural and intercity services with greater anglia

Chiltern FgW Southeastern and Southern have pockets of DOO
 

ainsworth74

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I thought 12-car peak time c2c services had guards or has that now changed?
 
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