Finsbury Park gatelines - a rather obvious flaw

[jon0844]

I saw the new gateline at Finsbury Park today, opening April 20th, and quickly saw the obvious flaw and potential downside. Namely that the spiral staircases will not be gated, and will become the easy way to get into and out of the station if you have no ticket, or an invalid ticket for that part of an overall journey.

I spoke to a GN guy who says TfL did their research and said very few people will make the diversion, and they expect the new gates to be fully effective.

I have to disagree. Finsbury Park has long been known as a very easy way into the Underground network without a ticket (or the right ticket) and more people will likely use the stairs which will have an impact at peak times when people are changing from overland trains to the tube and vice versa.

Yes, there will be more random stings in the corridor, but they won't be there all the time. Plus, if there's a block for people coming in, given the position of the Oyster readers you'd surely just touch in that one time and consider it nothing more than bad luck.

I'd have said there is almost as much room for gates for the GN/spiral staircase entrance from street level as there is from the official tube entrance, if they made a few changes to bring the gates out a bit (making the burrito shop and cash machine end up behind the gates).

This would finally mean the station is 100% protected and the gates up the stairs for the National Rail lines would be unnecessary, as well as having to touch out/in when changing service.

 

[Jonny]

I'd have said there is almost as much room for gates for the GN/spiral staircase entrance from street level as there is from the official tube entrance, if they made a few changes to bring the gates out a bit (making the burrito shop and cash machine end up behind the gates).

The issue is the burrito shop - the effect would be a potential loss of revenue, hence there would need to be a lower rent payable to make up for it; if this rent reduction is thought to be likely to be greater than losses from irregular travel then it isn't worthwhile putting the barriers in.

 

[jon0844]

I can't imagine that this retail outlet can make money. It's in a good location, but totally hidden. When it was a coffee kiosk, it was too small to cope with demand so people would shop elsewhere.

Personally, I'd sacrifice some income from that to close what's a massive hole in the security plan.

 

[bramling]

I saw the new gateline at Finsbury Park today, opening April 20th, and quickly saw the obvious flaw and potential downside. Namely that the spiral staircases will not be gated, and will become the easy way to get into and out of the station if you have no ticket, or an invalid ticket for that part of an overall journey.

I spoke to a GN guy who says TfL did their research and said very few people will make the diversion, and they expect the new gates to be fully effective.

I have to disagree. Finsbury Park has long been known as a very easy way into the Underground network without a ticket (or the right ticket) and more people will likely use the stairs which will have an impact at peak times when people are changing from overland trains to the tube and vice versa.

Yes, there will be more random stings in the corridor, but they won't be there all the time. Plus, if there's a block for people coming in, given the position of the Oyster readers you'd surely just touch in that one time and consider it nothing more than bad luck.

I'd have said there is almost as much room for gates for the GN/spiral staircase entrance from street level as there is from the official tube entrance, if they made a few changes to bring the gates out a bit (making the burrito shop and cash machine end up behind the gates).

This would finally mean the station is 100% protected and the gates up the stairs for the National Rail lines would be unnecessary, as well as having to touch out/in when changing service.

View attachment 21828

They should just close the whole place. An awful station, responsible for a disproportionate amount of fare evasion, trouble and crime on both mainline and LU.

And from a personal point of view, a pain in the backside delaying many trains on their journey from King's Cross by a minute or two. For many King's Cross commuters, 20 minutes wasted time every week thanks to Finsbury Park.

Can't think of one positive thing about Finsbury Park.

 

[HowardGWR]

The issue is the burrito shop - the effect would be a potential loss of revenue, hence there would need to be a lower rent payable to make up for it; if this rent reduction is thought to be likely to be greater than losses from irregular travel then it isn't worthwhile putting the barriers in.

What's a burrito shop?

Actually I have looked it up now. Shews how much I am out of it. I hate those 'wraps' - they offer them on Easyjet, cardboard food, ugh!

 

[telstarbox]

A station cannot be responsible for fare evasion or crime.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They should just close the whole place. An awful station, responsible for a disproportionate amount of fare evasion, trouble and crime on both mainline and LU.

A station is responsible for crime? I know Finsbury Park is grotty, but I didn't think it had got so bad it had evolved into a sentient being.

I imagine the "security hole" will be sorted out (if) when the new Western Entrance gets built. The plan is for the Wells Terrace entrance to be closing shortly, so it'll get harder to evade fares.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What's a burrito shop?

Actually I have looked it up now. Shews how much I am out of it. I hate those 'wraps' - they offer them on Easyjet, cardboard food, ugh!

If Easyjet is your barometer for what a burrito tastes like then no wonder you don't like them. The Easyjet ones probably are made of cardboard. Don't write off Mexican food based on a budget airline though, some of it is wonderful.

 

[hwl]

I spoke to a GN guy who says TfL did their research and said very few people will make the diversion, and they expect the new gates to be fully effective.

Did you speak to him on the 1st April?

There are people on twitter already proclaiming they have just found a way of evading the barriers before they even in operation...

 

[jon0844]

He was being sarcastic! He also said that while lifts to platforms (GN) should be going in this year (October), the new ticket hall/entrance probably won't be until 2018/9.

 

[DeeGee]

The plan is for the Wells Terrace entrance to be closing shortly, so it'll get harder to evade fares.

Are they moving those buses, then? I'll be honest, it's decades since I was last around there, but that's where the bus to Crouch End used to leave from, isn't it?

 

[QueensCurve]

I saw the new gateline at Finsbury Park today, opening April 20th, and quickly saw the obvious flaw and potential downside. Namely that the spiral staircases will not be gated, and will become the easy way to get into and out of the station if you have no ticket, or an invalid ticket for that part of an overall journey.

I spoke to a GN guy who says TfL did their research and said very few people will make the diversion, and they expect the new gates to be fully effective.

I have to disagree. Finsbury Park has long been known as a very easy way into the Underground network without a ticket (or the right ticket) and more people will likely use the stairs which will have an impact at peak times when people are changing from overland trains to the tube and vice versa.

Yes, there will be more random stings in the corridor, but they won't be there all the time. Plus, if there's a block for people coming in, given the position of the Oyster readers you'd surely just touch in that one time and consider it nothing more than bad luck.

I'd have said there is almost as much room for gates for the GN/spiral staircase entrance from street level as there is from the official tube entrance, if they made a few changes to bring the gates out a bit (making the burrito shop and cash machine end up behind the gates).

This would finally mean the station is 100% protected and the gates up the stairs for the National Rail lines would be unnecessary, as well as having to touch out/in when changing service.

View attachment 21828

An illustration of the folly of bringing back ticket barriers?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are they moving those buses, then? I'll be honest, it's decades since I was last around there, but that's where the bus to Crouch End used to leave from, isn't it?

Nope, the W3, W5 and 210 will still go from Wells Terrace. They're just making everyone walk around to either the main entrance or the Seven Sisters Road entrance I think.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-station-entrance-for-two-years-10043818.html

A few people dodging out of the station through the spiral stairs will be the least of their worries. I'm just glad I don't live in Muswell Hill anymore!

 

[jon0844]

These were the other posters around the station.





(Damn the forum for rotating the portrait photos!)

 

[Merseysider]

Couldn't a member of staff be permanently placed by the stairs to catch anyone who'd slip through the system?

 

[jon0844]

I am sure they'll do stings from time to time, but clearly it won't be a permanent thing. The National Rail platforms are unaffected (bar the fact that some islands don't have gates and at peak times, gates are often required to be open) so it's up to TfL - and in my experience, TfL don't have that many people to do revenue protection.

 

[bramling]

A station is responsible for crime? I know Finsbury Park is grotty, but I didn't think it had got so bad it had evolved into a sentient being.

I imagine the "security hole" will be sorted out (if) when the new Western Entrance gets built. The plan is for the Wells Terrace entrance to be closing shortly, so it'll get harder to evade fares.

The layout of the station does not help, an awkward layout of stairways, passages and subways which has resulted in the LUL station remaining one of the few without gates, and the mainline part being only partially gated - and their gates being in a constricted space on the platform has meant they don't work particularly well especially at busy times.

Externally, the station entrances are a magnet for petty crime, as well as being stuck in the middle of two busy roads.

Generally regarded as a horrible station to work at, on the LUL side the ops room is a broom cupboard tucked away at the top of a staircase. Always plenty of passenger-related trouble and difficult to manage because of the awkward station layout.

Just to wrap it off, a pain in the arse on Arsenal days too.

Hopefully the changes will address the difficulties somewhat.

 

[Antman]

Couldn't a member of staff be permanently placed by the stairs to catch anyone who'd slip through the system?

Not very effective surely?

There are other LU stations where you can bypass the ticket gates by using the lifts

 

[jon0844]

I assume the right people soon learn all the places in London where you can get in/out of the system. And, like King's Cross, it seems perfectly acceptable to man gates in one place while there's a nice easy open exit around the corner (i.e. platforms 9-11 staffed, 0-8 open during most of the day).

It must also make it quite easy to fare evade from further out of London by train at Finsbury Park because platforms 1/2 have no gates at all either. Ideal for doughnutting.

 

[Merseysider]

Not very effective surely?

There are other LU stations where you can bypass the ticket gates by using the lifts

Yes, and considering you've got locations completely open (eg Royal Victoria DLR) there'll always be some people who find a way.

But half measures are a lot cheaper than full measures

 

[jon0844]

No measures are even cheaper and probably as effective as the half measures!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, and considering you've got locations completely open (eg Royal Victoria DLR) there'll always be some people who find a way.

The DLR has lots of completely open stations, but makes up for it with very regular checks on trains.

 

[jon0844]

When I've seen checks on trains, people without tickets/validated Oyster cards just get off and walk off the station.

Assuming they do a proper block at stations, how often is that? I've never seen one, but must make clear I probably use DLR no more than 25 times a year.

 

[Antman]

When I've seen checks on trains, people without tickets/validated Oyster cards just get off and walk off the train.

Assuming they do a proper block at stations, how often is that? I've never seen one, but must make clear I probably use DLR no more than 25 times a year.

I use DLR regularly and have never seen any blocks at stations just the occasional on train ticket checks which is impossible when they are packed anyway.

 

[Aictos]

I imagine the "security hole" will be sorted out (if) when the new Western Entrance gets built. The plan is for the Wells Terrace entrance to be closing shortly, so it'll get harder to evade fares.

1. The new Western Entrance WILL be built from early 2018.

2. The Wells Terrace Entrance closes permanently on 20th April 2015.

He was being sarcastic! He also said that while lifts to platforms (GN) should be going in this year (October), the new ticket hall/entrance probably won't be until 2018/9.

Sorry to burst your bubble fella but lifts to all platforms arrive from early 2019, I know Alexandra Palace is getting lifts soon but not sure when.

*That was provided in a internal staff brief this week*

 

[jon0844]

I did wonder about the time for the lifts. He probably got stations mixed up.

I wonder how many people realise that platforms 1/2 have lifts already. Also, when trains start to go to/from Moorgate at weekends it will mean a nice step free transfer to the Victoria line is possible all week, and certainly far quicker than King's Cross.

 

[jopsuk]

the layout of the railway, station, roads and underground station at Finsbury Park is entirely sub optimal- but to truly fix it would mean digging a vast pit to underground platform level and closing off all lines and roads for about three years (so cannot happen)

 

[hassaanhc]

When I've seen checks on trains, people without tickets/validated Oyster cards just get off and walk off the station.

Assuming they do a proper block at stations, how often is that? I've never seen one, but must make clear I probably use DLR no more than 25 times a year.

On-train checks are random, can go ages without seeing one then get a few in a short space of time. The last time, someone hadn't touched in in Zone 3 when they had a Z1-2 season. They were given the option to get off and touch in or receive a £40 penalty. I thought not touching in was deliberate but there you go.

As for station blocks, last month I found one at Gallions Reach, at 2215 on a Sunday! That is dedication

 

[jon0844]

Late night stings can be VERY profitable. I think they're good as they'll also potentially have the strongest positive impact in getting people going out for the night to buy a ticket, and not simply assume they'll be fine as it's late.

 

[Mike395]

On-train checks are random, can go ages without seeing one then get a few in a short space of time. The last time, someone hadn't touched in in Zone 3 when they had a Z1-2 season. They were given the option to get off and touch in or receive a £40 penalty. I thought not touching in was deliberate but there you go.

As for station blocks, last month I found one at Gallions Reach, at 2215 on a Sunday! That is dedication

The DLR has far more station blocks and on-train checks than the Underground due to it being mostly ungated. Evening on-train checks actually seem to be relatively frequent still when I've used the system - although a station block at that time (and at a minor station) does seem a bit unusual admittedly