Class 321 & 317 cascades

[jopsuk]

With current rolling stock replacement plans by 2018 there will be 27 Class 317 and 13 class 321 displaced by the Thameslink and London Overground (West Anglia) projects, with no clear (as far as I've seen) plan for where these will go.

I don't see Greater Anglia (or their successor) wanting to take on all (or any?) of the units. Where will they go? Wales? North?

 

[NLC1072]

Give them to the fgw fraanchisse when the wires are up.

 

[D365]

Give them to the fgw fraanchisse when the wires are up.

They are decided on their fleet. 37x 387 and 21x 365.

 

[D60]

We keep reading that there's a requirement for 6-car trains on peak services on the electrified Bolton corridor... Is there any scope for 317s, re-formed as 3-car sets, with their end corridor connections, to fulfil such a role?

 

[Techniquest]

I thought FGW weren't getting many 365s, certainly not 21 of them! I take it this means the additional 6 387s have been ordered? Sorry if this has been discussed already, I really am not up to date with all the movements!

As for the 317s and 321s, it would make sense to send some of them at least. That would at least allow TPX to give Northern their 156s back, once the 321s have been suitably refurbished of course. Mind you, I suppose TPX will be getting their new fleet by then!

Sure LM would happily snap up some of either class, since they need more EMUs in the next couple of years for Bromsgrove and Rugeley as it is plus more still to allow for growth etc.

Too early for ATW and the Cardiff Valleys, although if they made the Swanline services exclusively between Swansea and Newport only they could use EMUs and use the DMUs on said services to relief overcrowding elsewhere.

FGW's Cardiff to Taunton services should be able to go over to EMUs by then too shouldn't they? If that's already part of the plan with 365s etc then my apologies, as I mention above I'm a bit lost in what's happening when and where!

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought FGW weren't getting many 365s, certainly not 21 of them! I take it this means the additional 6 387s have been ordered? Sorry if this has been discussed already, I really am not up to date with all the movements!

Please see my reply in another thread about 387 and 365, this was all confirmed on the 23rd March.

 

[Class 170101]

Some 321s to Greater Anglia to cover for some of the short trains on GE in the peak.

Class 317s for West Anglia for any remaining four cars and perhaps strengthening some 8 car trains to 12 cars.

 

[D365]

Boring, that's too sensible

 

[Techniquest]

I thought FGW weren't getting many 365s, certainly not 21 of them! I take it this means the additional 6 387s have been ordered? Sorry if this has been discussed already, I really am not up to date with all the movements!

Please see my reply in another thread about 387 and 365, this was all confirmed on the 23rd March.

Yes I saw that thread after I had seen this one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some 321s to Greater Anglia to cover for some of the short trains on GE in the peak.

Class 317s for West Anglia for any remaining four cars and perhaps strengthening some 8 car trains to 12 cars.

Exceptionally sensible that.

So we should expect the 321s to disappear to FGW and 317s to ScotRail

 

[ac6000cw]

I guess there is also the possibility that some of the oldest 317 units will get scrapped (they will be 36 years old in 2018).

 

[Techniquest]

Fair point, I assume those will be 317/3s and 317/5s as the oldest ones? Really can't remember which ones got renumbered from the 317/3 series but I seem to recall it was quite a few?

 

[43074]

Fair point, I assume those will be 317/3s and 317/5s as the oldest ones? Really can't remember which ones got renumbered from the 317/3 series but I seem to recall it was quite a few?

Yep, the 317/3s, 317/5s, 317/7s and 317/8s are the oldest units. The /7s and /8s will be replaced in 2017 by new trains for London Overground's West Anglia services anyway, the /3s are going off lease from Great Northern in 2016.

 

[D365]

The subclass for the original build was known as 317/1 but all units (/1 and /2 batches) were originally numbered in the /3 range. Of the /1 subclass only the 12 GN units remain. Units from the second, newer batch are all found under the /6 subclass, all others are from the original, oldest batch.

 

[Andrew1395]

321 to the new Silverlink franchise. They can then be used on the WFJ and Tring peak hour extras. Solid simple units more than adequate for 30 minute dash to Euston. Plus well known on the route.

 

[AM9]

I guess there is also the possibility that some of the oldest 317 units will get scrapped (they will be 36 years old in 2018).

Age per se is not a criterion for replacement. Even though the bean counters see them as written off, they can still be put into revenue-earning service.

 

[158722]

321 to the new Silverlink franchise. They can then be used on the WFJ and Tring peak hour extras. Solid simple units more than adequate for 30 minute dash to Euston. Plus well known on the route.

You mean just like the ones which are being replaced by 319s in September then?!

 

[SPADTrap]

Does anyone know when the 317s will leave AGA then? I'm guessing as the /6s are having a bit of a refurb/refresh (?) that they will stick around?

 

[Clarence Yard]

If the bodyshells are good, there's no reason why they can't go on for years yet. The possibility of fitting them with AC motors is there as well as all the refurb. permutations.

The DfT were banking on the GN 317 and 321 fleet (with the HEX 360 units) going to GA to cope with the predicted increases in passenger numbers in the next few years so unless a GA bidder has a killer new build EMU option, there will be work for them on GA for a decade or more.

One of the quirks of ROSCO financing is that the stock isn't depreciated as BR would have done it. The capital element of the ROSCO rental charge remains the same throughout the life of the vehicle and that is why they are sometimes so keen on capital value enhancing mods on old stock that they can then rentalise.

 

[D365]

Does that mean that when the Lea Valley routes (those taken over by LO) receive new rolling stock, that the 317s they have taken on in the short term will return to the GA franchise? Or will they by that time have received the 12 317s and 13 321s from GN and thus have no need for the sub-optimal ex-SX units?

 

[ac6000cw]

Age per se is not a criterion for replacement. Even though the bean counters see them as written off, they can still be put into revenue-earning service.

I'm well aware of that, but equipment has an economic life, beyond which the rising costs of maintenance due to long-term issues like corrosion and fatigue (and parts availability) can make it more cost-effective to replace with new - and the 'new' will have better performance, lower energy consumption (due to regeneration), aircon etc.

There also seems to be a trend to give more weight to rolling stock quality in franchise specifications/decisions.

 

[Techniquest]

The subclass for the original build was known as 317/1 but all units (/1 and /2 batches) were originally numbered in the /3 range. Of the /1 subclass only the 12 GN units remain. Units from the second, newer batch are all found under the /6 subclass, all others are from the original, oldest batch.

Cheers! 317/1 was going through my head as a possible option but so did 317/0 and 317/3, so obviously I went for /3.

Should be interesting to see what happens in 2016 and 2017 then!

 

[David Goddard]

Would send all 321s to AGA to strengthen the GE services
317/6s are a nice size fleet (24) for cascade elsewhere, might fit well in the Bristol area once wired. Could stay as 4s or be reformed into 3s and 5s if desired.
The other 48 317s (first phase) are a bit of a dogs dinner at present and could end up anywhere.

 

[D365]

Should be interesting to see what happens in 2016 and 2017 then!

I was pretty sure the GN units will only begin to come off lease in 2018 as this is when Thameslink will finally service the Canal Tunnels to Finsbury Park and beyond.

 

[jopsuk]

there's no plan to replace the 317/6, 317/5 and 5x 317/8 that will remain at GA after the LO split- unless anyone has a source of 44 (45 if you also include 317722) units? Obviously a further 45 (or more- say a round 50?) 379s could of worked pretty well.

In (several) years time some of the "via Tottenham Hale" services may go to Crossrail 2, but in the meantime if you want to propose a combined Liverpool Street/Stratford to Hertford East, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport and Cambridge (plus Ely & Kings Lynn) fleet, make it 75-80 units...

 

[43074]

I was pretty sure the GN units will only begin to come off lease in 2018 as this is when Thameslink will finally service the Canal Tunnels to Finsbury Park and beyond.

Something like this is likely to happen: the 377/5s for Cambridge Crusiers will displace the 365s to replace the 317s and 321s on GN. Then the Great Western 365s will be replaced by the 700s in 2018 leaving the 21 Peterborough units.

 

[D365]

Something like this is likely to happen: the 377/5s for Cambridge Crusiers will displace the 365s to replace the 317s and 321s on GN. Then the Great Western 365s will be replaced by the 700s in 2018 leaving the 21 Peterborough units.

Ah okay, so the 377/5s are likely to be displaced first? Note that it's only 19 units which are remaining for Peterborough peaks; 21 of the 40 are to be taken over by GW.

 

[hwl]

TSGN External cascades

Based on the ITT document:
By end 2015
387/1 x 10 units
319 x 35 units (inc. 6 that went off lease before the contract started)

By end 2016
319 x 8 units
36 units from 317/321/365 + balance of 7x 319s not accounted for elsewhere

By end 2017
319 x 25 units
17 units from 317/321/365 + balance of 7x 319s not accounted for elsewhere

By end 2018
387/1 x 19 units
319 x 11 units


Things have of course changes in the mean time (covered in the other threads):
387/1 confirmed as going to GW but electrification is delayed.
First 700 in service Feb 2016.
NW electrification delays.

So it still looks like the first 700s will be needed to cover for the initial batch of 387/1 leaving (enough 700s cars already produced to do this but in service is another matter). Then 44 units of 317/319/321/365 to go off lease in the remainder of 2016 and 42 units in 2017.
700 production & delivery looks like it will average 38 cars/ month* over the actual delivery period so it looks like there will be very little slack to manage internal cascades in 2016 if delayed 387/1 cascade is included and acceptance and training /deployment issues are taken into account.

*1140 cars delivered over 30 months

 

[jopsuk]

the 317/321/365 fleet going off lease is 46 units total- 12x317, 13x321 & 21x365, with only the 365s having a destination accounted for.