• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

'British' TOCs

Status
Not open for further replies.

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
Just out of interest, which companies who form all or part of a current (or potential) franchise TOC can be classed as 'British'? For example, Stagecoach is a British company - it was founded here and its owner is British - if I understand correctly, but Abellio is a Dutch company?

In terms of how you categorise what is and isn't British... I suppose founded and primarily operating in the UK? Or maybe that any operating profits will mainly go back into the British economy? Feel free to be flexible with that though.

There's probably several cans of worms here but I'll take the risk!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
Go Ahead operate Southern, Southeastern, London Midland and Thameslink/Great Northern and are British.

The less-straightforward ones are the likes of Arriva, who came out of 1930s Sunderland but are now a subsidiary of the Germany's DB...
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Go Ahead operate Southern, Southeastern, London Midland and Thameslink/Great Northern and are British.

The less-straightforward ones are the likes of Arriva, who came out of 1930s Sunderland but are now a subsidiary of the Germany's DB...

Though that partnership is with Keolis

/Pedant

First are another British company - GWR
 
Last edited:

DeeGee

Member
Joined
24 Jul 2012
Messages
1,117
Location
Great Grimsby
Or maybe that any operating profits will mainly go back into the British economy? Feel free to be flexible with that though.

Operational Revenues will go to pay staff salaries, which will go back into the British economy for all TOCs, regardless of their parent group.

Operational profits will produce a surplus for use by either the TOC or the parent company to spend as they see fit, which may be in the UK or overseas regrdless of the nationality of the parent. It will also provide a dividend for shareholders who likewise may or may not be UK-based.

The only important criterion is whether jobs are created and pay goes back into the economy. Ford's not British, but it sure as heck plays a vital role in the economy around Dagenham.
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
Foreign:
AGA, Scotrail, Stansted Express (All Abellio - international arm of Nederlandse Spoorwegen)

Partial:
Merseyrail, Northernrail (50% Serco [UK], 50% Abellio [Dutch])
ATW, Chiltern, CrossCountry, Grand Central (Arriva - UK HQ, but subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn)
First Transpennine (55% First Group [UK], 45% Keolis [SNCF - France])
GatEx, Great Northern, London Midland, Southeastern, Southern, Thameslink (Govia. 65% Go-Ahead [UK], 35% Keolis [French - SNCF owned])

UK:
First Great Western, First Hull Trains, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, c2c, Caledonian Sleeper, East Midlands Trains, Island Line, South West Trains, Virgin Trains East Coast, Virgin Trains (All UK owned, either by one entity or in partnership)
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
(Govia. 65% Go-Ahead [UK], 35% Keolis [French - SNCF owned])

Keolis is part-owned by CdpQ of Canada, but majority owned by SNCF.

Our friends north of the border like to call FirstGroup and Stagecoach "Scottish" companies because their HQs are based there.
This may matter one day.
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
Our friends north of the border like to call FirstGroup and Stagecoach "Scottish" companies because their HQs are based there.
This may matter one day.

Ah, but both are listed on the LONDON Stock Exchange... :)
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
Doing a bit of maths, if you exclude the open access operators and those (GatEx/Island Line) which are actually part of a wider franchise, the share of the franchises which is in UK hands amounts to just over 56%
 

Noddy

Member
Joined
11 Oct 2014
Messages
1,009
Location
UK
Keolis is part-owned by CdpQ of Canada, but majority owned by SNCF.

Our friends north of the border like to call FirstGroup and Stagecoach "Scottish" companies because their HQs are based there.
This may matter one day.

Didn't Alex Salmond say something about HQs just being a 'brass plaque'....
;)
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,121
Location
Cambridge, UK
Doing a bit of maths, if you exclude the open access operators and those (GatEx/Island Line) which are actually part of a wider franchise, the share of the franchises which is in UK hands amounts to just over 56%

Is that by franchise turnover/revenue or on some other basis ?
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
Nothing as fancy as that! 21 franchises, worth 100 points each. Points allocated according to the UK/foreign split of share holding. 2100 points in total.
 

Noddy

Member
Joined
11 Oct 2014
Messages
1,009
Location
UK
Does it matter whether they are British or not?

Personally I couldn't care less where they are from as long as they provide a decent, safe service and treat their staff well.
 

AE

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2012
Messages
57
The main inconsistency with the arrangements, seems to me, to be the fact that a state owned non-British company is allowed to bid for a franchise whereas a state owned British company is not.
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
The main inconsistency with the arrangements, seems to me, to be the fact that a state owned non-British company is allowed to bid for a franchise whereas a state owned British company is not.

Indeed.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
The main inconsistency with the arrangements, seems to me, to be the fact that a state owned non-British company is allowed to bid for a franchise whereas a state owned British company is not.
They can, but not in the UK. Nothing stopping them bidding for franchises in other countries... If there were any to bid for, that is.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
They can, but not in the UK. Nothing stopping them bidding for franchises in other countries... If there were any to bid for, that is.

There are some to bid for, notably in Germany (where Arriva originally made inroads).
All the major cities tender their operations periodically.
Part of the problem is that there are no major British public sector rail/transport companies with the funds and remit to bid.
That's because we privatised it all.
All that's left is LU (a big beast), and DRS (a small beast).
I doubt their owners (TfL and NDA) are interested in foreign ventures.
It's regrettable that the UK majors (Stagecoach, First and the rest) are so uninterested in Europe.
They prefer to waste their energies on running bus services in the USA.
 

al.currie93

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2013
Messages
381
I did read somewhere that TfL want to look into foreign operations, but I don't know if anything came of it. DRS seem more interested in stealth-nationalising our own railways :P
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
I did read somewhere that TfL want to look into foreign operations, but I don't know if anything came of it.

Would that be the same TfL who contact out their bus services to the likes of Abellio, Arriva et al?
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Would that be the same TfL who contact out their bus services to the likes of Abellio, Arriva et al?

And the same TfL who have let LOROL operate the overground for the past few years, LOROL being half owned by Arriva, and the other half owned by MTR. I note that LOROL have been left out of that list, which could probably be redone quite a bit better.

Lump together the sub-franchises:
Stanstead Express+Greater Anglia
Thameslink, Southern, and Great Northern
South West Trains and Island Line

I would also add in LOROL, who have been missed out.
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
I'll redo the list tomorrow at work - presumably I'll still be able to edit my original posts?

Thoughts on including/leaving out the open access operators?
 

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
I personally wouldn't consider Arriva to be British, as they're now part of the DB Group...
 

mirodo

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
643
I personally wouldn't consider Arriva to be British, as they're now part of the DB Group...

Yeah I changed it in the table in my first post but neglected to amend the text in the second post. Will fix when I'm not on my mobile
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top