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Train delayed after buying a ticket on board

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johntea

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I bought a Castleford to Rotherham return on board the 14:36 Castleford - Sheffield service.

Due to a points failure near Normanton we had to go back towards Castleford then back out to Normanton via an alternate route.

This meant I would have missed the 15:42 Meadowhall to Rotherham connection making the journey pointless to me so I'm bailing at Wakefield Kirkgate.

Can I get a refund for my ticket? I have a Z1-3 MetroCard so that covers the Castleford to Wakefield journey (if that is even relevant in this case), I just start my ticket from Castleford as it is slightly cheaper than starting it from Wakefield with a railcard discount.
 
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najaB

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Mmm... it would seem to me that you should be able to get a refund:
NRCoC said:
26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.
If you decide not to use a ticket to make all or part of your intended journey, then:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will, wherever possible, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27;
You haven't used the ticket, I don't see why it makes a difference where you bought it.
 

island

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In order to qualify for a refund under that condition you must promptly surrender your ticket to a booking office.
 

PermitToTravel

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26(b) then:
(b) if the train you intend to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, your ticket or relevant portion of it is completely unused, you decide not to travel and you submit a claim for a refund within 28 days of the expiry of the ticket to the Ticket Seller you will be given a full refund as shown in Condition 27 as soon as practicable and in any case within one month of your claim being received.
 

cjmillsnun

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26(b) then:

26(b) doesn't apply. As the OP bought the ticket on the train, then it is automatically used for the journey between Wakefield and Castleford, therefore the ticket is not completely unused.

However if the delay would've been over an hour then delay repay would apply.
 

yorkie

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26(b) doesn't apply. As the OP bought the ticket on the train, then it is automatically used for the journey between Wakefield and Castleford, therefore the ticket is not completely unused

I disagree.

The OP did not need to use the ticket at that point (but was required to purchase it at the earliest opportunity) - it remains wholly unused in my opinion.
 

najaB

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As the OP bought the ticket on the train, then it is automatically used for the journey between Wakefield and Castleford, therefore the ticket is not completely unused.
So you're of the opinion that a passenger can never get a full refund for a ticket bought on a train?
 
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PermitToTravel

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26(b) doesn't apply. As the OP bought the ticket on the train, then it is automatically used for the journey between Wakefield and Castleford, therefore the ticket is not completely unused.

However if the delay would've been over an hour then delay repay would apply.

It should still be read along with the bit between "26" and "(a)".
 

Merseysider

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The discussion on what should technically happen is most likely academic; if johntea writes an email explaining the situation and saying he is very cross at having to abandon a journey, a Northern day voucher will probably appear in the post!
 

johntea

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Think I'll just write in as you say as it is an interesting situation!

Even more so in the fact I cannot return my ticket to a manned ticket office as one isn't in operation at Castleford, Normanton or Kirkgate!
 

hairyhandedfool

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I disagree.

The OP did not need to use the ticket at that point (but was required to purchase it at the earliest opportunity) - it remains wholly unused in my opinion.

I can't agree with your opinion, unless the existing ticket/pass was shown when a ticket inspection was carried out.

The question is not of which ticket they could have used, but which one they actually used.

So you're of the opinion that a passenger can never get a full refund for a ticket bought on a train?

A ticket bought on board can be refunded, however, any refund would take account of any use. If the ticket is bought after the point at which it was needed to commence the journey (or that part of it), then it is already part, or completely, used.

It should still be read along with the bit between "26" and "(a)".

That passage also relates to parts (c) (d) and (e), all which allow for partial refunds.
 

Shempz

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This raises a good point. Is a ticket classed as being "used" the moment you start your journey, or on completion of your journey to the destination stated on the ticket? My opinion would be that if the TOC is unable to get you to your destination within reasonable time - and I would say the moment you are eligible for a Delay Repay and abandon your journey before your destination then it is not within a reasonable time, and you could class that ticket as unused - maybe I'm talking rubbish though!
 

najaB

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This raises a good point. Is a ticket classed as being "used" the moment you start your journey, or on completion of your journey to the destination stated on the ticket? My opinion would be that if the TOC is unable to get you to your destination within reasonable time - and I would say the moment you are eligible for a Delay Repay and abandon your journey before your destination then it is not within a reasonable time, and you could class that ticket as unused - maybe I'm talking rubbish though!
I would say it is at least partially used when you get to somewhere you want to be - this takes account of break of journey. In the OP's case, he couldn't get to where he wanted to be, and being in Wakefield was (a) of no use to him; and (b) covered by the Metrocard he had in his pocket.

I, for one, would consider the Castleford-Rotherham ticket to be unused.
 

Bletchleyite

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The discussion on what should technically happen is most likely academic; if johntea writes an email explaining the situation and saying he is very cross at having to abandon a journey, a Northern day voucher will probably appear in the post!

I'm with you on that one. If I purchased a ticket for a journey and abandoned it midway because of the railway's doing (i.e. a significant[1] delay made the journey pointless), I would treat it as if I hadn't taken the journey at all and be looking for RTVs (or equivalent) to the full value of the ticket, or similar, whether it was technically unused or not.

[1] If a 5-minute delay made the journey pointless, I'd question my planning.
 

Haywain

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I agree that the journey was aborted due to the delay, and therefore a full refund would be appropriate. The Metrocard has no beating on that at all.
 

gray1404

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I had a situation with Northern travelling from Manchester Airport to Southport. Got to Piccadilly and train failed and caused delays making the journey pointless. I was able to return to Manchester Airport and receive a full refund on my ticket. However, because the guard had stamped my ticket already they made me send it into customer relations for a refund. I refused the Day Voucher and they sent a cheque in the post. I ended up keeping the day voucher as they never asked for it back. I was annoyed the booking office insisted I sent the ticket in for refund. I've found with Northern you can stand your ground and get actual RTVs/cheque refunds (when due) if you refuse their day vouchers.
 

Starmill

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In order to qualify for a refund under that condition you must promptly surrender your ticket to a booking office.

In order that they may equally promptly tell you to bugger off, and submit it to Customer Relations (doubtless to be resolved with a voucher as a 'gesture of goodwill' rather than actually complying with the condition).
 
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island

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In order that they may equally promptly tell you to bugger off, and submit it to Customer Relations (doubtless to be resolved with a voucher as a 'gesture of goodwill' rather than actually complying with the condition).

Quite an example of something that works in theory and not in practice.
 

Haywain

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In order that they may equally promptly tell you to bugger off, and submit it to Customer Relations (doubtless to be resolved with a voucher as a 'gesture of goodwill' rather than actually complying with the condition).
Island's comment is not strictly accurate. It is necessary to promptly surrender the ticket to a ticket office in order to obtain an immediate refund, but the entitlement to a full refund remains, as long as the ticket is surrendered within 28 days of the expiry of validity. Refunds are always paid to the card used for purchase, or by cash/cheque/BACS, and hardly ever in vouchers.
 

Starmill

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Island's comment is not strictly accurate. It is necessary to promptly surrender the ticket to a ticket office in order to obtain an immediate refund, but the entitlement to a full refund remains, as long as the ticket is surrendered within 28 days of the expiry of validity. Refunds are always paid to the card used for purchase, or by cash/cheque/BACS, and hardly ever in vouchers.

Someone should tell Northern! I agree with the above, and was merely poiting out that immediate refunds are almost never given regardless of what you do. Why I couldn't possibly say, but I wonder if it stems from similar reasons as to why local staff put up signs saying 'TOC X Only tickets are non-refundable' when it's balderdash.
 

PermitToTravel

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I think we already had a thread on this? I recall someone saying that the NRCoC says you can have a refund if possible, and the TISes for whatever reason don't have a "refund ticket" button
 

johntea

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I did send a photograph of the tickets off to Northern with an explanation, see you next month when they finally respond probably :lol:
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think we already had a thread on this? I recall someone saying that the NRCoC says you can have a refund if possible, and the TISes for whatever reason don't have a "refund ticket" button

Yes we have, and it is whenever possible (source: NRCoC), but it's not a case of not having a "refund button", it's slightly different.

A Northern office can immediately refund any non-ToD ticket issued at that office (or any non-ToD tickets issued by the Northern TVMs at that station), it can also refund, within a few minutes, a non-ToD ticket issued by any other Northern machine. A minor problem with Privatisation means that a ticket issued by another company (or ToDs issued on their behalf) would have to go back to the original issuer as it is not possible for Northern to deal with them directly. Other TOCs will probably have similar (though not necessarily the same) issues.
 

Deerfold

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Yes we have, and it is whenever possible (source: NRCoC), but it's not a case of not having a "refund button", it's slightly different.

A Northern office can immediately refund any non-ToD ticket issued at that office (or any non-ToD tickets issued by the Northern TVMs at that station), it can also refund, within a few minutes, a non-ToD ticket issued by any other Northern machine. A minor problem with Privatisation means that a ticket issued by another company (or ToDs issued on their behalf) would have to go back to the original issuer as it is not possible for Northern to deal with them directly. Other TOCs will probably have similar (though not necessarily the same) issues.

That's not really a problem with privatisation as such, but the way it's been implemented. It would be quite possible for any office to issue a refund and for the rest to be an accounting problem within the rail industry - it is the rail industry which has chosen to make this the passenger's problem.
 

Haywain

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It would be quite possible for any office to issue a refund and for the rest to be an accounting problem within the rail industry - it is the rail industry which has chosen to make this the passenger's problem.
And that is what is supposed to happen in disruption when a customer is entitled to a full and immediate refund.
 

johntea

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UPDATE

I got a very brief letter back from Northern with a RTV attached for a full refund.
 
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