Some TPE trains tomorrow between York and Manchester (was 'All...')

[trainophile]

From Twitter link to TPE's Journey Check page:

All trains cancelled tomorrow due to "a broken rail" apparently. Also described as "poor rail conditions" - well yes, that figures.

All the cancelled trains have the advice under "additional information" that "passengers should travel on the next available service", which is really helpful as there don't seem to be any!

 

[najaB]

Engineering work also reported on NR's twitter feed: link.

 

[northrob]

Yes, there are trains between York & Manchester Airport, it's mainly only the daytimes ones that start/finish at York that are cancelled - other services will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 3.

 

[yorkie]

That's not what I'm seeing at http://www.journeycheck.com/tpexpress

20 train cancellations

Mon, 20 April 05:55 York to Manchester Airport due 07:42

Mon, 20 April 08:06 Manchester Airport to York due 09:40

Mon, 20 April 08:53 York to Manchester Airport due 10:39

Mon, 20 April 09:06 Manchester Airport to York due 10:40

Mon, 20 April 09:53 York to Manchester Airport due 11:39

Mon, 20 April 10:06 Manchester Airport to York due 11:40

Mon, 20 April 10:53 York to Manchester Airport due 12:39

Mon, 20 April 11:06 Manchester Airport to York due 12:40

Mon, 20 April 11:53 York to Manchester Airport due 13:39

Mon, 20 April 12:06 Manchester Airport to York due 13:40

Mon, 20 April 12:53 York to Manchester Airport due 14:39

Mon, 20 April 13:06 Manchester Airport to York due 14:40

Mon, 20 April 13:53 York to Manchester Airport due 15:39

Mon, 20 April 14:06 Manchester Airport to York due 15:40

Mon, 20 April 14:53 York to Manchester Airport due 16:41

Mon, 20 April 15:06 Manchester Airport to York due 16:40

Mon, 20 April 15:53 York to Manchester Piccadilly due 17:16

Mon, 20 April 16:06 Manchester Airport to York due 17:43

Mon, 20 April 17:53 York to Manchester Piccadilly due 19:14

Mon, 20 April 18:26 Manchester Piccadilly to York due 19:40

That's no more than one train per hour cancelled. The other trains are still running, and some are strengthened with an additional 3 coaches.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Broken rail west of Leeds.
Not all trains are cancelled:

Delays of up to 15 minutes can be expected to trains between Leeds and Huddersfield / Bradford Interchange / Wakefield Westgate.
- Some First TransPennine Express services between York and Manchester Airport will not run. The services that do run will have additional carriages. Customers with tickets for the cancelled trains can use alternative services.
- Northern Rail services between Leeds and Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange / Wakefield Westgate will run between Leeds and Bradford only.
- Northern Rail services between Selby and Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange are running as two separate services - between Selby and Leeds, and between Bradford Interchange and Huddersfield

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

 

[DarloRich]

From Twitter link to TPE's Journey Check page:

All trains cancelled tomorrow due to "a broken rail" apparently. Also described as "poor rail conditions" - well yes, that figures.

All the cancelled trains have the advice under "additional information" that "passengers should travel on the next available service", which is really helpful as there don't seem to be any!

i dont think no trains is true...................

 

[trainophile]

My apologies . I am not familiar with the frequency of these services, and assumed that if there is a broken rail preventing some of them running then the same would apply to all, until such time as the rail is repaired.

Still a heck of a lot of cancellations though, and potential for much inconvenience.

I wouldn't have noticed at all except I'm booked on the 1006 MAN-YRK on Thursday, to connect with a VTEC service for which I used Rewards, so if it doesn't run or is delayed it'll cost me around £150 to get both of us onwards to Dundee!

Nervously hoping the problem can be resolved quickly.

 

[yorkie]

My apologies . I am not familiar with the frequency of these services, and assumed that if there is a broken rail preventing some of them running then the same would apply to all, until such time as the rail is repaired.

A broken rail would only prevent all services if it was a single track line with no diversionary routes.

All of this route is at least double track. There are multiple diversionary routes available too.

Still a heck of a lot of cancellations though, and potential for much inconvenience.

For most it'll only be around 15 mins to the next train. For some it'll be worse with connections missed.

I wouldn't have noticed at all except I'm booked on the 1006 MAN-YRK on Thursday, to connect with a VTEC service for which I used Rewards, so if it doesn't run or is delayed it'll cost me around £150 to get both of us onwards to Dundee!

Why would it cost you anything? It'll cost TPE in delay compensation (though as your journey is so cheap - as the EC element of your journey isn't costing anything - it won't cost them much!)

If you want advise regarding your specific journey, I suggest you post a new thread, with full details of your entire journey and all tickets held.

 

[trainophile]

Why would it cost you anything? It'll cost TPE in delay compensation (though as your journey is so cheap - as the EC element of your journey isn't costing anything - it won't cost them much!)

If you want advise regarding your specific journey, I suggest you post a new thread, with full details of your entire journey and all tickets held.

Sorry, not really worth starting a second thread so I'll briefly explain that I booked Hereford to Manchester and Manchester to York as separate Advance tickets (York being our nearest East Coast (as was) station!) in order to pick up a VTEC service at York. I believe if you don't catch your train when booked through the Rewards scheme, even when it's not your own fault, you are not permitted to take another train, and we would therefore have to pay walk-up fares to complete our journey.

Would love to be proved wrong on that, but that's my understanding.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, not really worth starting a second thread so I'll briefly explain that I booked Hereford to Manchester and Manchester to York as separate Advance tickets (York being our nearest East Coast (as was) station!) in order to pick up a VTEC service at York. I believe if you don't catch your train when booked through the Rewards scheme, even when it's not your own fault, you are not permitted to take another train, and we would therefore have to pay walk-up fares to complete our journey.

Certainly not the case.

Would love to be proved wrong on that

You're wrong

You are allowed to use multiple tickets for one journey (NRCoC, condition 19), as explained in our Fares Guide under 1.6 Split ticketing, in particular see:

1.6.3 Rights of Split Ticket Users

When using split tickets you are entitled to the same rights as users of through tickets, namely:
​

• If you miss your final train home due to delays on the rail network, any TOC in a position to do so must help to get you home or arrange overnight accommodation for you but you must make sure that you adhere to the minimum connection times. We suggest that you obtain and print an itinerary from National Rail Enquiries as this will ensure your connections are valid.
• If your train is delayed you are entitled to compensation for the full journey from the operator who delayed you. Often this uses the Delay Repay scheme, but some older TOCs have their own schemes.
• When using one or more advance tickets, if you are delayed on route you may take the next available service. We recommended that you get your ticket stamped at a booking office to confirm the delay, although this is not strictly necessary.

We used to have all sorts of arguments about this (despite the T&Cs being absolutely black and white) because one or two people refused to accept the NRCoC.

I then used to link people to East Coast's policy (obtained through FOI requests), and some people refused to accept that EC's interpretation of the Conditions was correct. All those arguments ceased when the Advance Fare FAQ was released in July 2011.

The latest copy of the FAQs is in this post in our Fares Guide.

but that's my understanding.

I don't know where you got that understanding from. The only Guard I'm aware of who shared it is the infamous one whose name I won't mention (but loads of people know exactly who he is!), he incorrectly charged zzip00, in Summer 2010, who was subsequently refunded, causing the policy to be mentioned again in their Pricing & Ticketing Update the following month, with the apt wording "Following a recent complaint..."

I've not heard of any attempt to charge passengers for a delay to a railway service, that I can recall, since then! In the very unlikely event of an incorrect charge being made, we would assist you recovering the money in addition to any delay compensation due.

 

[najaB]

You're wrong.

In addition to Yorkie's post above, the T&C's say that travel is subject to the 'standard' NRCoC:

15.3.18 All passengers are carried subject to the normal travel terms and conditions of Virgin Trains East Coast and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[185]

Hopefully this time, this raft of cancellations is really down to a genuine maintenance issue. FTPE have got form for dressing things up...

______________

Transpennine Distress: Media disaster - Press Manager David Mallender caught lying, 2004

A- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3967291.stm
"Leaves on the line, loadsa cancellations"

B- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3974527.stm
Few days later, Aslef calls the BBC to rumble the lie, driver shortage.
Metro WY hits the roof.
FTPE refuse to apologise, claiming they were 'misunderstood'.

C- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4012271.stm
Service finally get back to normal weeks later.

 

[najaB]

Hopefully this time, this raft of cancellations is really down to a genuine maintenance issue. FTPE have got form for dressing things up...

Well, it is also on NR's Twitter feed.

 

[trainophile]

Took some finding, but (from the Rewards T&Cs)...

Your tickets are only valid on the booked train. It’s not possible to change them or get a refund.

Which I took to mean that you had to travel on your booked train and that's that!

Misinterpreted then? Which is good news if I can stop worrying. I was also concerned about the early HFD-MAN leg, and the slow running freight trains saga!

Oh and apologies for distracting from the original topic, even though I seem to have got my proverbials in something of a twist! Thanks for everyone's comments. Time to call it a night...

 

[Darren R]

It's only a week since a cracked rail at Whitehall Jn caused the same problems; is this just a coincidence or is it a recurrence? The problem was reported to have been fixed on Wednesday.

 

[yorkie]

Took some finding, but (from the Rewards T&Cs)...

Your tickets are only valid on the booked train. It’s not possible to change them or get a refund.

Which I took to mean that you had to travel on your booked train and that's that!

That's right, they are effectively the same as Advance tickets (ie, booked train only, no refunds), except you can't make any changes, not even for an admin fee.

That has nothing to do with delays.

Misinterpreted then?

Yes, if you want to make a change that's one thing.

If the rail industry forces a change on you, that's quite another!

If you can supply your intended itinerary, we may be able to provide specific advice for your journey.

 

[AmateurRambler]

I understand that the broken rail was temporarily repaired midweek (presume with plenty of duct tape); a 10mph TSR was imposed. Not been over it since last week- wonder if the temp fix has failed? Will find out as booked job today includes LDS - MCV. Heard the broken section of rail is a bespoke piece of track and mess room grape vine suggests the repair time is anything up to 26 weeks!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I understand that the broken rail was temporarily repaired midweek (presume with plenty of duct tape); a 10mph TSR was imposed. Not been over it since last week- wonder if the temp fix has failed? Will find out as booked job today includes LDS - MCV. Heard the broken section of rail is a bespoke piece of track and mess room grape vine suggests the repair time is anything up to 26 weeks!

Is there anyone on this website in the actual division that covers line repairs on this particular area who can give a factual posting response to the query that has been raised with regards to the actual time period requirements for the return of the track to normal there.

 

[bradders1983]

Are any trains actually cancelled on this route this morning? Leeds to Brad Int trains all look to be running normally.

 

[trainophile]

That's right, they are effectively the same as Advance tickets (ie, booked train only, no refunds), except you can't make any changes, not even for an admin fee.

That has nothing to do with delays.

Yes, if you want to make a change that's one thing.

If the rail industry forces a change on you, that's quite another!

If you can supply your intended itinerary, we may be able to provide specific advice for your journey.

Depart HFD 0753; arrive MAN 1014; depart MAN 1026; arrive YRK 1140; depart YRK 1154. I think we've allowed minimum connection times, but it might be tight at York depending on platforms, and of course everything running to time. We booked HFD-MAN-YRK as separate legs so we could go 1st on the TPE.

Any advice appreciated!

Edited to say the 1026 is cancelled today so it might be advisable to assume the same will apply on Thursday. I suppose we can't use our 0753 Advance tickets from Hereford on an earlier train in this situation?

 

[DarloRich]

@trainophille

You will be fine, don't worry.

As long as you get yourself onto the first train on your itinerary you are "in the system" and the system will deliver you to the end. If there are any issues with connections present yourself and your tickets to the nearest information desk, explain the position and hey presto you will be on the next train.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Here is the official line, from an industry internal communication (abridged details below):


Following the discovery of a second break on the run off from the original break Network Rail advise the track defect between 5505 and 5506 points at Whitehall West Junction means there is reduced infrastructure available. Services are unable to run between the following points:
Copley Hill West Junction and Whitehall West Junction (trains will divert from Copley Hill West Junction to Copley Hill East Junction, picking up booked route at Leeds West Junction)
Wortley Junction and Whitehall West Junction (trains will divert from Wortley Junction onto the Down Bradford to Whitehall West, picking up booked route at Leeds West Junction)
This will result in reduced available paths between Copley Hill East Junction and Whitehall East Junction and between Whitehall West Junction and Wortley Junction. TPE will amend the train service on Monday 20/04/15 by cancelling the York to Manchester Airport and return services to allow for the restriction on the infrastructure and diversions to facilitate other train operators.

Further communications indicate that further emergency engineering works will take place overnight this week, but that the trackwork concerned is "bespoke" and if temporary repairs are not possible then replacement trackwork is being made to order, but will not be available until June.

 

[syorksdeano]

A second break near the original repair doesn't sound to good

 

[trainophile]

Thanks everyone. It all seems to be a bit up in the air doesn't it?

Anyway, I bottled it and have now booked tickets to go up to York the previous day, thus ensuring we are in the right place at the right time for our onward journey to Dundee. We took advantage of the 4x 1st Class for 1400 points, and knowing how busy those trains get it could have been dodgy trying to find two seats together in 1st on a later train than the one our reservations are on.

Found a hotel not too far from York station for £44 a night including breakfast - goodness knows what it's like but it'll do the job! So adding the extra day came in at under £100 including train tickets, which is worth it for the peace of mind.

It looks like it's all the **26 trains, that terminate at York, that are being cancelled, and one of those is on our replacement schedule on Weds. However if the 1426 isn't running there's one at 1457 so presumably we'd be allowed to take that one.

 

[43367]

The down Doncaster is still blocked at Whitehall junction due to a crack in a weld on a complex piece of point work, meaning all traffic from Wakefield Westgate have to go over bi directional over the UP Doncaster or via the Copley chord, trains from Bradford interchange use a once little used crossover between Wortley Tunnel and Wortley junction, which is a good thing that that crossover is there and pointing in the right direction or trains from Interchange would of been well and truly snookered. temporary repairs were made last Wednesday, I think it was, and a 10mph emergency speed restriction put on it with East Coast, Cross Country and other high tonnage services still going bi-di or using the chord to avoid extra stresses on the crossing, however during an examination on Saturday night the fault either at same place or very close to the original piece of rail was discovered and job stopped.

Local Northern and TPE service have been thinned out to prevent congestion and Huddersfield-Selby services now treated as 2 separate services now Huddersfield-Leeds and Leeds- Selby now

 

[mike57]

Travelled from Scarborough to Birchwood yesterday and there was no delay even although NR website warned me to expect delays.

In York I did notice that it appeared the the train up to Scarborough had another 3 carriages which were detached at York, so if all the York - Man services are attached to other workings then the same number of seats will be available, just with a bit of a gap in services, but there are 5 TPE trains an hour now from Leeds - Man so the delays would be minimal. It wasnt that busy yesterday anyway but I was an hour later than usual.

 

[TUC]

Local Northern and TPE service have been thinned out to prevent congestion and Huddersfield-Selby services now treated as 2 separate services now Huddersfield-Leeds and Leeds- Selby now

How does that help if it doesn't actually reduce the number of services needing to use the line?

 

[najaB]

How does that help if it doesn't actually reduce the number of services needing to use the line?

Depending on where the broken rail is it may avoid the need to traverse that particular section of track. I don't know the details, but if the services start/end at different platforms then it would avoid the need to pass through a particular set of points.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How does that help if it doesn't actually reduce the number of services needing to use the line?

Depending on where the broken rail is it may avoid the need to traverse that particular section of track. I don't know the details, but if the services start/end at different platforms then it would avoid the need to pass through a particular set of points.

Huddersfield to Leeds via Bradford are terminating Bradford. That's one less train per hour in each direction between Leeds and Bradford Interchange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To make matters worse, the 1859 Huddersfield to Leeds via Dewsbury is currently being held at Mirfield due to a fatality at Dewsbury. Thoughts with the family of the victim, and the driver of course.

 

[leedslad82]

That explains why we are currently being held at Huddersfield on the Manchester to Hull TPE service

Huddersfield to Leeds via Bradford are terminating Bradford. That's one less train per hour in each direction between Leeds and Bradford Interchange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To make matters worse, the 1859 Huddersfield to Leeds via Dewsbury is currently being held at Mirfield due to a fatality at Dewsbury. Thoughts with the family of the victim, and the driver of course.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That explains why we are currently been held at huddersfield om the Manchester to Hull TPE service

Hull service terminated at Huddersfield. Moved onto Newcastle service which is being diverted via Wakefield