Advice please on All Line Rover in June / July

[LeylandLen]

I live near Preston and intend to use a standard class 7 day ALR in June/July probably starting on a Tuesday. I have a senior railcard. My first train would be the 0717 south to Birmingham( arriving 0905) changing for Bristol and Penzance. I see that the regulations say ..' not valid by for boarding/alighting ... on Virgin Trains ...before 1000 at Birmingham New Street,' . Now I would be changing trains, obviously alighting.
I can understand the rule stopping me from leaving New Street as a commuter would but I would be changing trains. I realise I can get around it by changing at Wolverhampton(not on list of specific stations) from the 0717 Virgin train to a following London Midland stopping train to Walsall via New Street , but it would only give me 2 mins to change trains at New Street or delay my departure to Bristol. I wouldn't want the first day to be spoilt by breaking a regulation !!

 

[transportphoto]

I live near Preston and intend to use a standard class 7 day ALR in June/July probably starting on a Tuesday. I have a senior railcard. My first train would be the 0717 south to Birmingham( arriving 0905) changing for Bristol and Penzance. I see that the regulations say ..' not valid by for boarding/alighting ... on Virgin Trains ...before 1000 at Birmingham New Street,' . Now I would be changing trains, obviously alighting.
I can understand the rule stopping me from leaving New Street as a commuter would but I would be changing trains. I realise I can get around it by changing at Wolverhampton(not on list of specific stations) from the 0717 Virgin train to a following London Midland stopping train to Walsall via New Street , but it would only give me 2 mins to change trains at New Street or delay my departure to Bristol.

Not valid if you intend to leave a Virgin Train at New Street before 10, simple. You could, if you wanted, buy an additional ticket to cover you for the leg of the journey between Sandwell & Dudley and New Street, this will set you back £2.10.

TP

 

[postye]

Not valid if you intend to leave a Virgin Train at New Street before 10, simple. You could, if you wanted, buy an additional ticket to cover you for the leg of the journey between Sandwell & Dudley and New Street, this will set you back £2.10.

TP

If changing onto a Cross-country train you would also need something to cover you on that train as boarding/alighting XC services before 10:00 is also barred at New Street

 

[RJ]

When I did my ALRs and travelled on trains leaving London before 10:00, the ticket inspectors appeared to be oblivious to any time restrictions. However, by virtue of condition 19c, you can travel through New Street by any train by buying a SDS between Smethwick Rolfe Street and Fiveways.

 

[NottsPhil]

When I did my ALRs and travelled on trains leaving London before 10:00, the ticket inspectors appeared to be oblivious to any time restrictions. However, by virtue of condition 19c, you can travel through New Street by any train by buying a SDS between Smethwick Rolfe Street and Fiveways.

So as I read that you can get round the 10am rule by buying a ticket from the nearest station, even if your train doesn't stop there? (Finsbury Park for KX, Kentish Town for St P etc)

For the record 19c says...

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[RJ]

Yes, got it in one.

 

[David57]

Re Writing next weeks rover based on this information......

 

[yorkie]

So as I read that you can get round the 10am rule by buying a ticket from the nearest station, even if your train doesn't stop there? (Finsbury Park for KX, Kentish Town for St P etc)

Why would the train need to call?

You're not using 19b

For the record 19c says...

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Yep, one (and only one) Season/Rover and any number of non-Seasons is fine under 19c.

 

[David57]

Right!
Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but i need to be sure over this (in case Brer Gripper asks me to justify my actions) on condition 19c.

I am on a Virgin train, that arrives in Euston at 07.31.
Clearly, the T&C's of my ALR say that I am not allowed to arrive in Euston before 10.00.
By buying a single from South Hampstead to Euston, I can use my Virgin train into Euston under the terms of condition 19c.

I (obviously) understand that the Virgin train does not call at South Hampstead.

Would gateline/revenue staff be aware of this, and it's legality, or would I have to be prepared for an argument?

 

[RJ]

Right!
Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but i need to be sure over this (in case Brer Gripper asks me to justify my actions) on condition 19c.

I am on a Virgin train, that arrives in Euston at 07.31.
Clearly, the T&C's of my ALR say that I am not allowed to arrive in Euston before 10.00.
By buying a single from South Hampstead to Euston, I can use my Virgin train into Euston under the terms of condition 19c.

I (obviously) understand that the Virgin train does not call at South Hampstead.

Would gateline/revenue staff be aware of this, and it's legality, or would I have to be prepared for an argument?

As a general rule, you have to be prepared if using any loophole. I gather the restrictions were brought in to exploit the consumer surplus of the market most likely to be using them. It wasn't intended as a penalty against enthusiasts and I'm pretty sure it has been acknowledged as a valid loophole which would be shut if lots of people start doing it.

 

[yorkie]

Would gateline/revenue staff be aware of this, and it's legality, or would I have to be prepared for an argument?

I bet most gateline staff are unaware the ALR has restrictions. If any are aware of the restrictions, but not familiar with Condition 19(c) and therefore think it's invalid, they'd need to summon revenue staff to deal with it.

In theory revenue staff will be aware of Condition 19(c), but if not you could ask them to look it up. You do have to be prepared for a discussion, as a small minority of revenue staff are not familiar with the Conditions, believe it or not.

Anyway it's clearly valid, and has been reportedly confirmed as such by people with contacts at ATOC

It is counted under the National Conditions and this IS allowed. The problem is that ATOC have told me that if people do this then the only step left will be a total time restriction of, say, 1000 and that will kill it.

ATOC is aware of the Forum and are anxious as they don't want the rover killed off but are under pressure from some TOCs to prevent abuse - even if the 'abuse' is in fact legitimate.

If I recall correctly, Tom Cairns (of Railmiles/Realtimetrains) also did some investigating and spoke to someone at ATOC who basically said the same thing. Not that we need their confirmation

 

[LeylandLen]

'Would gateline/revenue staff be aware of this, and it's legality, or would I have to be prepared for an argument?'

For those not familiar with the setup at Euston compared with , say Liverpool St, Kings Cross etc (I dont have much knowledge of other London termini ) that there are no ticket barriers/gatelines yet for Virgin trains arriving in designated platforms(1-18 except 8-11) at Euston ; however there are for London Midland trains arriving at designated platforms.(platforms 8-11 inc) Sometimes tickets are manually checked before being allowed to platform for Virgin trains. Other times you can just join train with no checks. However tickets are checked on train .

 

[Seaeagle]

So as I read that you can get round the 10am rule by buying a ticket from the nearest station, even if your train doesn't stop there? (Finsbury Park for KX, Kentish Town for St P etc)

Sorry, just want to clarify this works the other way around as I'm starting an ALR on Monday, I can get a single from KX - Fins Park and use the ALR from there onwards? Planning on getting the 08:00 from KX on Tuesday. Thanks

 

[PeterY]

Re Writing next weeks rover based on this information......

I hope that you post where you went on your ALR.

I had a thought today, are many ALR's actually sold, each year? For me, it's a shame they're so expensive without a railcard discount.

 

[Seaeagle]

I hope that you post where you went on your ALR.

I had a thought today, are many ALR's actually sold, each year? For me, it's a shame they're so expensive without a railcard discount.

For me it'll be Norwich tomorrow for the 47's, Edinburgh on Tuesday for the 68 around the Fife Circle,back down south on the sleeper hopefully with 87002, Wednesday 68's from Marylebone, Thursday North Wales, Friday & Saturday unknown as yet, and not using the pass on Sunday, back to work!

 

[David57]

Just started my ALR last night, on the beds down to Penzance, now working my way up to Cardiff for the WAG express.
87002 worked the sleepers North last night.

 

[Mag_seven]

For me it'll be Norwich tomorrow for the 47's, Edinburgh on Tuesday for the 68 around the Fife Circle,back down south on the sleeper hopefully with 87002, Wednesday 68's from Marylebone, Thursday North Wales, Friday & Saturday unknown as yet, and not using the pass on Sunday, back to work!

87002 is *due* to work south on 1M16 tonight so (if its running) will be northbound (not southbound) on Tuesday night I'm afraid.