Farnworth Tunnel Options Report

[QueensCurve]

Donalson Associates listed on the website that they had been contracted by Network Rail to conduct an optioneering study on the work needed to electrify Farnworth Tunnels and upgrade the linespeeds.

I requested the report through FOI and have now received a copy.

As far as I can see NR have not published a copy on their website as is usually the case under FOI so I am trying to attach the Report to this message.

 

[snowball]

Thank you - I haven't read it all yet but it's fascinating so far.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was pleased to read that the recommended option 3 had been suggested:-
Up Bolton.......100mph
Down Bolton...100mph

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Thank you - I haven't read it all yet but it's fascinating so far.

I too have not read it all yet but so far fascinating.

I was pleased to read that the recommended option 3 had been suggested:-
Up Bolton.......100mph
Down Bolton...100mph

Common sense has prevailed!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Common sense has prevailed!

Sadly it will never triumph over physics - I doubt Farnworth is far enough from Bolton for trains to get from 20mph (let alone a standing start) to 100mph.

That said, if you're going to spend that kind of money you may as well built it for a higher speed, just in case ...

 

[najaB]

Sadly it will never triumph over physics - I doubt Farnworth is far enough from Bolton for trains to get from 20mph (let alone a standing start) to 100mph.

But if the tunnel is designed so that trains have adequate clearance at 100mph, then they've definitely got 60mph clearance.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sadly it will never triumph over physics - I doubt Farnworth is far enough from Bolton for trains to get from 20mph (let alone a standing start) to 100mph.

That said, if you're going to spend that kind of money you may as well built it for a higher speed, just in case ...

I hear what you are saying - I just prefer longer term thinking. The bitterness of poor quality long outlasts the sweetness of a low price.

I remember the old M63 now part of the M60 at Barton Bridge. They tagged a lane on either side. When they widened the M6 at the Thelwall viaduct they built a whole new bridge -much less disruptive and longer term planning. Perhaps instead of "Common sense has prevailed" I might have been better saying "Wonderful that they have planned for the longer term".

 

[Joseph_Locke]

But if the tunnel is designed so that trains have adequate clearance at 100mph, then they've definitely got 60mph clearance.

The minimum clearances to conventional trains are the same at any speed below 125mph - its the huge re-alignment (to the point that the current Up line is on the alignment of the new Down line) that is speed-sensitive, due to rates of gain of cant and deficiency.

 

[Class 170101]

Sadly it will never triumph over physics - I doubt Farnworth is far enough from Bolton for trains to get from 20mph (let alone a standing start) to 100mph.

That said, if you're going to spend that kind of money you may as well built it for a higher speed, just in case ...

I thought there were some TPE trains that ran non-stop though Bolton in the peaks.

 

[najaB]

I thought there were some TPE trains that ran non-stop though Bolton in the peaks.

I thought so too, but had a look on Realtime Trains and it appears that they are all stoppers.

 

[30907]

And in any case nothing goes very fast through Bolton

 

[thealexweb]

I thought there were some TPE trains that ran non-stop though Bolton in the peaks.

At the moment all scheduled services halt at Bolton.

From December 2016 there will be a handful of early morning TPE services that will slow to 15mph for Bolton's sharp corner then accelerate through the station.

I am glad the 'rumours' of a consistent 100mph between Salford Crescent and Bolton are starting to shape up. In their 2012 West Coast bids Virgin and First both promised Bolton 1tpd to London Euston by 2016. Hopefully in the 2017 franchise we can see something a bit more ambitious. Every third Manchester terminator extended to Bolton maybe?

 

[Class 170101]

I thought so too, but had a look on Realtime Trains and it appears that they are all stoppers.

Hmm may have been Scotland trains now diverted via Wigan NW.

 

[thealexweb]

Hmm may have been Scotland trains now diverted via Wigan NW.

When the Scotland services ran via Bolton Bolton was always a required stop. Chorley was omitted from some late evening services though.

 

[Voglitz]

The Farnworth project is 'fascinating', in a 'WTF??????' way.

 

[Darren R]

Having read the report I now know why the speed limit through the Down bore is significantly lower than through its neighbour - I had wondered this for some time, especially as I remember it being 70mph in the mid 1980s.

So that's one question answered, but the report leads me to ask another. Why on Earth is Farnworth Tunnel Listed? hock: I didn't even know it was! How much of a pain are English Heritage likely to be on this one?

 

[snowball]

Why on Earth is Farnworth Tunnel Listed? hock: I didn't even know it was! How much of a pain are English Heritage likely to be on this one?

I didn't know it was listed till I read the report yesterday, so I did a quick Google. Listed building consent has been obtained:

http://www.ruthjacksonplanning.co.uk/archives/61

Bolton Council’s development control committee granted planning permission and listed building consent for plans to widen the listed Clammerclough Tunnel at Farnworth on the 12th February 2015. This is a key decision for the Network Rail Farnworth Project and demonstrates the Council’s support for Network Rail’s plans to modernise the Victorian rail infrastructure in the North of England. RJP is leading consents management for the project. You can view more information, including a brilliant video about the project here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/farnworth/.

(The video is the same one already linked several times in the relevant threads.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am glad the 'rumours' of a consistent 100mph between Salford Crescent and Bolton are starting to shape up.

Line speed increases usually require signal repositioning as well as track upgrades.
I'm not sure the line is being resignalled along with electrification.
I wouldn't have thought a higher speed was feasible east of Agecroft.
The chances of a clear run eastwards to Salford Crescent are very low anyway.
The route either side of Chorley is probably another awkward section because of curvature and signal sighting, not to mention the approach to Euxton Jn.
Tellingly, in the tunnel report about 100mph it says that signalling has not been considered.

 

[najaB]

Line speed increases usually require signal repositioning as well as track upgrades.
...
Tellingly, in the tunnel report about 100mph it says that signalling has not been considered.

The redesigned tunnel will still be in use when ETCS reaches 'oop norf'

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Line speed increases usually require signal repositioning as well as track upgrades.

Correct

I'm not sure the line is being resignalled along with electrification.

It is.

I wouldn't have thought a higher speed was feasible east of Agecroft.

It isn't. :cry:

The chances of a clear run eastwards to Salford Crescent are very low anyway.

Depends on whether a train is in the way. Now, if someone were to add an extra Down platform at Bolton ...

The route either side of Chorley is probably another awkward section because of curvature and signal sighting, not to mention the approach to Euxton Jn.

The 50 through Chorley is probably fair game though?

Tellingly, in the tunnel report about 100mph it says that signalling has not been considered.

Well, they have no part in the wider scheme (see comment at top)

 

[QueensCurve]

Sadly it will never triumph over physics - I doubt Farnworth is far enough from Bolton for trains to get from 20mph (let alone a standing start) to 100mph.

That said, if you're going to spend that kind of money you may as well built it for a higher speed, just in case ...

True, with 2 observations:-

1. Electric stock is likely to have a better acceleration characteristic - the 350s are quite sprightly
2. There may be an upgrade to the 20mph limit at Bolton at some time in the future - we can but hope

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm may have been Scotland trains now diverted via Wigan NW.

I assume this is just temporary pending electrification.

 

[Llama]

The 20mph at Bolton West Jn is irrelevant - there are other PSRs further east (40mph / 60mph).

If the current line speed west of Agecroft can't be increased, something might be able to be fettled with regard to the signalling at Windsor Bridge North on the Up Bolton. I suspect that flashing yellows would be prohibited for routing from the Up Bolton to the Up & Down Bolton due to a restricted overlap at Windsor Bridge South, but surely a platform on the Up Bolton at the Crescent with flashing yellows for the Up Salford isn't beyond the realms of possibility?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The 20mph at Bolton West Jn is irrelevant - there are other PSRs further east (40mph / 60mph).

If the current line speed west of Agecroft can't be increased, something might be able to be fettled with regard to the signalling at Windsor Bridge North on the Up Bolton. I suspect that flashing yellows would be prohibited for routing from the Up Bolton to the Up & Down Bolton due to a restricted overlap at Windsor Bridge South, but surely a platform on the Up Bolton at the Crescent with flashing yellows for the Up Salford isn't beyond the realms of possibility?

Quite, but a better solution would be to tweak the speeds so that the difference between main line and turnout to the platform is 10 mph or less and do away with flashers, approach controls, the lot. Only needs 10mph off the main line (which drops to 40mph 300y later anyway) and 5mph on the crossover and probably saves 30+ seconds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

True, with 2 observations:-

1. Electric stock is likely to have a better acceleration characteristic - the 350s are quite sprightly
2. There may be an upgrade to the 20mph limit at Bolton at some time in the future - we can but hope

Surprisingly, I understand that the speed profile has included consideration of exotica like 221s, which are pretty much the best rail-based dragsters ...

A speed increase west of Bolton will probably require removal of all the S&C so that some cant can be applied; the curves are all 220 - 250m radius. I don't think you'll even get to the magic 40mph, allowing tilt.

 

[The Planner]

Like we need an excuse to try and rip out S&C!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Like we need an excuse to try and rip out S&C!

The signalling isn't all that old, is it? 1990 or thereabouts?
Unlike Huyton, Preston-Blackpool, Miles Platting-Ashton etc which was or is ancient.
But maybe if you call it part of the northern powerhouse HMG will tick the box.

In the last North Wales coast upgrade from 75mph to 90mph (around 2000), they failed to get past 85 in places, and left most of the platform faces, and Saltney-Connah's Quay, at 75.
Mostly down to signal sighting I believe, though later resignalling at the east end didn't improve things.
Salford-Euxton is full of platform faces.

 

[The Snap]

I'm not sure the line is being resignalled along with electrification.

It is.

The signalling isn't all that old, is it? 1990 or thereabouts?
Unlike Huyton, Preston-Blackpool, Miles Platting-Ashton etc which was or is ancient.
But maybe if you call it part of the northern powerhouse HMG will tick the box.

It's worth considering that with electrification often comes re-signalling. Given a Contractor is mobilised to carry out electrification (and has track access booked etc) it often makes sense to re-signal at the same time.

Also consider that as soon as you erect OLE gantries, portals, cantilevers etc, you will affect the sighting of most signals. As soon as you affect sighting, the signal will need relocating, and if you're going to relocate it, you need to renew it as you can't decommision and remove the old one until the new one is in service.

 

[edwin_m]

It's worth considering that with electrification often comes re-signalling. Given a Contractor is mobilised to carry out electrification (and has track access booked etc) it often makes sense to re-signal at the same time.

Also consider that as soon as you erect OLE gantries, portals, cantilevers etc, you will affect the sighting of most signals. As soon as you affect sighting, the signal will need relocating, and if you're going to relocate it, you need to renew it as you can't decommision and remove the old one until the new one is in service.

Existing signalling will not be immunised against electrification unless that was done at the time it was first installed. Recent signalling equipment is mostly immune anyway so less of a problem, but if the signalling is older it's probably better just replacing it as immunisation is a big task.

 

[QueensCurve]

Having read the report I now know why the speed limit through the Down bore is significantly lower than through its neighbour - I had wondered this for some time, especially as I remember it being 70mph in the mid 1980s.

So that's one question answered, but the report leads me to ask another. Why on Earth is Farnworth Tunnel Listed? hock: I didn't even know it was! How much of a pain are English Heritage likely to be on this one?

Apparently Network Rail has a policy of consulting with English Heritage (a Cadw yn Cymru) to assess every structure in an electrification project to identify whether it is, or should be listed. The philosophy apparently is that it is better to know early on that you are dealing with a listed structure than to find it gets listed just before you attach OHLE to it.

 

[snowball]

Apparently Network Rail has a policy of consulting with English Heritage (a Cadw yn Cymru) to assess every structure in an electrification project to identify whether it is, or should be listed. The philosophy apparently is that it is better to know early on that you are dealing with a listed structure than to find it gets listed just before you attach OHLE to it.

The tunnel has been listed since 1986:

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-210514-clammerclough-railway-tunnel-#.VT-d9vD8sY0

so the listing can't be the result of the current electrification project, which was announced in 2009.

However, as mentioned at the link in #17, listed building consent has been obtained for the enlargement.

 

[driver9000]

Having read the report I now know why the speed limit through the Down bore is significantly lower than through its neighbour - I had wondered this for some time, especially as I remember it being 70mph in the mid 1980s.

So that's one question answered, but the report leads me to ask another. Why on Earth is Farnworth Tunnel Listed? hock: I didn't even know it was! How much of a pain are English Heritage likely to be on this one?

According to the February 1985 Sectional Appendix the Down Bolton was 50mph through Farnworth tunnel.