• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Fridge Thrown Onto Tracks

Status
Not open for further replies.

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
The culprits of this imho need to be locked up for many years:

PASSENGERS were lucky to escape serious injury after a fridge-freezer was hurled onto the railway line from a pedestrian footbridge in Bournemouth, it has emerged.

The driver of the London Waterloo to Poole service spotted the refrigerator but was unable to stop before smashing into it on Wednesday night, causing damage to the front of his train.

British Transport Police (BTP), who describe the incident as a “totally reckless act that risked the safety of passengers and rail staff”, have launched an investigation into the incident.

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...dge_thrown_onto_railway_line_from_footbridge/
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Is there any technology available that could alert a signalman when an object like this lies on the track? Possibly some kind of weak electric signal along the track which would short when obstructed?
 

Zoidberg

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2010
Messages
1,270
Location
West Midlands
Is there any technology available that could alert a signalman when an object like this lies on the track? Possibly some kind of weak electric signal along the track which would short when obstructed?

I thought that was how a train was detected in a section.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
Howardh said:
Is there any technology available that could alert a signalman when an object like this lies on the track? Possibly some kind of weak electric signal along the track which would short when obstructed?
Depends. Signalling is being moved away from track circuits towards axle counters. I'm not sure that track circuits are actually a reliable indicator of line obstruction, as it would have to foul both rails and also be conductive. It's probably simpler to just fit that bridge with a cage to prevent anything being thrown at trains, as has been done to other footbridges.
 

Monty

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2012
Messages
2,349
I thought that was how a train was detected in a section.

Only for lines that utilise track circuits as a means of train detection. It wouldn't work as a means to tell if there was an obstruction or not as the debris would need to conduct electricity and be straddled across both pairs of rails for it work.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
Agree that it is not easy to detect obstructions on the track. Track circuits where used should detect a metallic obstruction that is making good electrical contact with both running rails, but even paint on say a fridge might prevent reliable contact.
Metallic obstructions that contact the live rail and a running rail MIGHT trip out the traction current, and if not at least give a bit of warning due to the conspicuous arcing that results.

Systems are available that use a trip wire under tension, this operates an alarm if triggered by an obstruction, they are used to detect rockfalls or landslides in places prone to such mishaps, this system MIGHT detect deliberately placed obstructions, but not reliably because they are placed on the vulnerable side of the rails and wont detect say a fridge that is on or between the rails but clear of the trip wire.

Infra red beam detectors have been tried, but tend to give too many false alarms due to birds or light weight and harmless wind blown debris.

CCTV is a possibility in particularly high risk locations, but not viable throughout.

Ultimately I suspect that the most effective deterrent is conviction and severe punishment when caught.
I would suggest 5 years imprisonment as a MINIMUM, for cases in which no serious accident results, 10 years if an accident is caused, and 20 years if life is lost.
 
Last edited:

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Agree that it is not easy to detect obstructions on the track. Track circuits where used should detect a metallic obstruction that is making good electrical contact with both running rails, but even paint on say a fridge might prevent reliable contact.
Metallic obstructions that contact the live rail and a running rail MIGHT trip out the traction current, and if not at least give a bit of warning due to the conspicuous arcing that results.

Systems are available that use a trip wire under tension, this operates an alarm if triggered by an obstruction, they are used to detect rockfalls or landslides in places prone to such mishaps, this system MIGHT detect deliberately placed obstructions, but not reliably because they are placed on the vulnerable side of the rails and wont detect say a fridge that is on or between the rails but clear of the trip wire.

Infra red beam detectors have been tried, but tend to give too many false alarms due to birds or light weight and harmless wind blown debris.

CCTV is a possibility in particularly high risk locations, but not viable throughout.

Ultimately I suspect that the most effective deterrent is conviction and severe punishment when caught.
I would suggest 5 years imprisonment as a MINIMUM, for cases in which no serious accident results, 10 years if an accident is caused, and 20 years if life is lost.

It needs to be a minimum of 15-20 years as is it much different from attempted murder/man slaughter?
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
It needs to be a minimum of 15-20 years as is it much different from attempted murder/man slaughter?

It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get any bird at all and just community payback etc, if indeed they are ever caught, sadly such moronic behavior is by no means unusual nowadays!
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
But I understand that we have the highest prison population in Europe barring Portugal. Is incarceration really the best way to deal with offenders of this nature?

Prison life is too cushy, for many it just isn't a deterrent
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
4,089
Location
Birmingham
But I understand that we have the highest prison population in Europe barring Portugal. Is incarceration really the best way to deal with offenders of this nature?

That's irrelevant to be honest. Something like this could cause serious injury or death not only to the crew & passengers on the train that hits the object but also to the crew & passengers of an oncoming service. Quite a serious offence and the perpetrators of this offence should be taken to task rather than given a slap on the wrist.

Out of interest, how would you deal with this?
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
I am not saying that this type of offence is not serious, and during my almost 40 years ad a Railwayman I have seen my share of damage caused by trespass and vandalism.

I am not saying that a custodial sentence may not be appropriate in some instances, but 20 years just sounded like a knee jerk Daily Mail influenced reaction.

There are many ways to restrict someone's liberty without locking them up. And these means are cheaper than the prison option.

And if prison is as cushy as some like to think, how will it benefit anyone?

As regards what action would I take? That would depend on so many variables that I don't think that I would like to make sweeping assessments of punitive actions.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,768
Location
Herts
Recall a log item on Merseyrail where services were suspended after some thief dropped a stolen microwave onto the 3d rail.

Many years ago - on a trip from Halifax to Man Vic - the old boy driver crunched his unit over a discarded fridge on the line. One of these 1970's "bomb alleys" - strewn with debris you do not see today - he obviously made a rapid risk assesment in a micro second and carried on.....
 

Flying Snail

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2006
Messages
1,625
I am not saying that a custodial sentence may not be appropriate in some instances, but 20 years just sounded like a knee jerk Daily Mail influenced reaction.

You think 20 years for a deliberate act that ends someone else's life is a knee-jerk reaction? I bet you wouldn't if that person was someone close to you.

There are many ways to restrict someone's liberty without locking them up. And these means are cheaper than the prison option.

I don't think that monetary cost should be the primary concern, there are plenty of worse ways my taxes are spent than separating dangerous criminals from the rest of society.

And if prison is as cushy as some like to think, how will it benefit anyone?

It benefits society by ensuring the criminal is unable to re-offend and it benefits the victim by appropriately punishing the person that harmed them.
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
I did say that a custodial sentence may not be appropriate.

I did say that a mandatory sentence may not be appropriate.

My wife is a Probation Officer.

And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thankfully those on this forum, which includes myself, decide on sentencing guidelines. So any strong opinions either way are just that, opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I meant that we do not decide sentences!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having a further think about it, suggestions in earlier posts were that long sentences should be imposed when fatalities occur. Surely the perpetrator would be charged with manslaughter and sentenced accordingly?
 

Emyr

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2014
Messages
656
Great way to reeducate criminals: put them in a building full of other criminals.
 

kermit

Member
Joined
2 May 2011
Messages
592
Great way to reeducate criminals: put them in a building full of other criminals.

Sad but true, no matter how "tough" you make it (see Jimmy Boyle's account of being held in a solitary cage in Barlinnie in the 70s, hardly a cushy environment), institutions like prisons just bind the inmates into common cause against authority.

The answers are not easy, but the casual dismissal of Community Service as a "slap on the wrist" doesn't help. The fact is that with skilled supervision, someone being required to do something they can be proud of (often a novelty) benefits both society, and the prospects for the individual.

But, like the railways, those skills are being lost, as with little publicity, the Probation Service is being broken up, privatised and plundered by - yes, here they are again - the likes of Serco!!
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
If caught (which they won't be because the file will already be at the bottom of the 'too difficult' pile) they would only be charged with what ever their actions caused, what might have happened is irrelevant.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
If caught (which they won't be because the file will already be at the bottom of the 'too difficult' pile) they would only be charged with what ever their actions caused, what might have happened is irrelevant.

Exactly, and they certainly won't be getting anything like 20 years:o

No doubt their defence will convince the court it was just intended as a bit of a laugh<(
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
No doubt their defence will convince the court it was just intended as a bit of a laugh<(

And the prosecution would no doubt be arguing that the actions of placing a comparitively light piece of equipment (a fridge) was in order to detail the train and cause as many fatalities as possible.

So is it is to 20 years for placing a fridge, then how long for a microwave? A toaster? [emoji1]
 

cool110

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2014
Messages
362
Location
Preston
It doesn't really matter what the outcome was. The action of throwing any objects onto a railway with intent to endanger passengers is an offence in its own right that carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
It doesn't really matter what the outcome was. The action of throwing any objects onto a railway with intent to endanger passengers is an offence in its own right that carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
The issue is that the prosecution would have to prove that intent beyond all reasonable doubt.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
It doesn't really matter what the outcome was. The action of throwing any objects onto a railway with intent to endanger passengers is an offence in its own right that carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.

Life:roll:? It may be rather difficult too prove that they intended to endanger passengers. I am not for one minute trying to defend such idiotic behavior, just being realistic.
 

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
Life:roll:? It may be rather difficult too prove that they intended to endanger passengers. I am not for one minute trying to defend such idiotic behavior, just being realistic.

Arguably it's potentially manslaughter then, isn't it? I'm no expert at all, just that's my understanding?
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
Arguably it's potentially manslaughter then, isn't it? I'm no expert at all, just that's my understanding?
Yes it would be manslaughter. BUT what was said was that the offence would be intent to endanger the public, and that intent would have to be proved. What is the likelihood that a fridge would derail a rail vehicle weighing 40 tonnes? I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, just rather unlikely.
 

atillathehunn

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
1,433
Location
NL
The lawyers will try for Section 35 Malicious Damage Act 1861 prosecution (indictable only), possibly Criminal Damages 1971. Depending on a number of factors they could end up settling for Section 56 British Transport Commission Act 1949.

But locking them away for life achieves what exactly? It cannot be a manslaughter case, for what I really hope are obvious reasons. Nor murder. Simply because it involves a train does not mean those responsible for the crime should be instantly killed, nor locked away.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
Flying Snail said:
You think 20 years for a deliberate act that ends someone else's life is a knee-jerk reaction? I bet you wouldn't if that person was someone close to you.
With respect, this is why we don't let victims of crime decide on guilt or punishment. A justice system cannot be run on emotive judgement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top