London routing

[michael74]

Good evening: I am travelling from the South West to Watford Junction via Paddington on an Advance Single. The travel itinerary routes me to Paddington on FGW then via the Tube to Queens Park then Overground to Watford Junction, do I have to go on that slightly bonkers route or can I take the very sensible route, Tube to Euston and fast train London Midland train to Watford thus saving me an hour of my life. Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

I'd say so, yes.

However note the 'Advance Fare FAQs' in the internal KnowledgeBase, and available in our Fares Guide (see Advance tickets), and bear in mind that London Midland consider their non-reservable trains to be, err.. sort-of reservable, as in they have 'counted places' for Advance fare quotas.

In the very unlikely event of a Guard checking tickets on such a train, it is theoretically possible they might ask for a reservation coupon, and if so they might decide you're not allowed to use their train, and they may or may not be right to say that (depending on your interpretation of the rules). But this is all very unlikely in my opinion.

 

[gray1404]

Exactly which (date and time) London Midland train do you plan using? I ask that because there is one per hour which LM do not condider reservable for advance ticket purposes and if you just so happen to be on that one, then you will not have any problems at all?

The journey planners do allow way too much time for crossing London in my view.

 

[RJ]

It takes 7 minutes from Paddington to Queens Park on the Bakerloo and 38 minutes from Queens Park to Watford Junction on the Overground. Adding in a 10 minute average wait for the Overground, I make that around 55 minutes.

It takes 15 minutes to get to Euston, excluding walking time. Average wait of 12 minutes at Euston and average journey time of 18 minutes to Watford Junction. Add in 5 minutes for interchange at Oxford Circus and Euston, that comes to 50 minutes.

You won't be saving anything near an hour of your life, more like 5-15 minutes if you're fortunate with interchanges. But the answer is yes, your ticket will be valid to go via Euston - but note the caveats highlighted by Yorkie and gray1404

 

[michael74]

Thanks for your answers,

I realised I did not ask the whole question (getting tired now) Here is my full itinerary,

...travel by train service provider First Great Western to station London Paddington arrives 12:23 ( seats reserved: Coach: A Seats: 69 )
departs London Paddington at 12:38 travel by London Underground to station Queens Park (London) arrives at 12:49
departs Queens Park (London) at 13:06 travel by Train service provider London Overground to station Watford Junction arrives 13:44
departs Watford Junction at 14:16 travel by Train service provider London Midland to station Garston (Herts) arrives 14:21

So if I us Network Rail Journey planner

12:36 London Paddington [PAD] London Euston [EUS] 12:49 0h 13m
13:04 London Euston [EUS] Watford Junction [WFJ] 13:26 0h 22m
13:31 Watford Junction [WFJ] Garston [GSN] 13:36 0h 05m

I only have two tickets for the journey, 1 is my travel ticket, denoting journey (from and to) and route inc + AP Slough, vadility IS

The second coupon is for the reservation for the journey into Paddington, thus why assumed it would be ok to go via Euston as I have no coupons denoting a validity for any other train other than the FGW into Paddington

Sorry only gave you guys half of the information, need to sleep I think lol

So it seems I would gain 45 minutes at my final destination, or if I choose to reach my destination at 14:21 as planned I can visit the Euston Tap......

Thanks again for helping the eternally befuddled

 

[PermitToTravel]

If it'll get you on an earlier train from Watford then it's worth doing. The 1304 isn't reservable so that's perfectly permitted.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for your answers,

I realised I did not ask the whole question (getting tired now) Here is my full itinerary,

...travel by train service provider First Great Western to station London Paddington arrives 12:23 ( seats reserved: Coach: A Seats: 69 )
departs London Paddington at 12:38 travel by London Underground to station Queens Park (London) arrives at 12:49
departs Queens Park (London) at 13:06 travel by Train service provider London Overground to station Watford Junction arrives 13:44
departs Watford Junction at 14:16 travel by Train service provider London Midland to station Garston (Herts) arrives 14:21

So if I us Network Rail Journey planner

12:36 London Paddington [PAD] London Euston [EUS] 12:49 0h 13m
13:04 London Euston [EUS] Watford Junction [WFJ] 13:26 0h 22m
13:31 Watford Junction [WFJ] Garston [GSN] 13:36 0h 05m

Didn't know Network Rail had a journey planner (unless you mean National Rail? It is getting late, after all!) but yes I think that is a reasonable itinerary as you are taking appropriate connecting services.

I only have two tickets for the journey, 1 is my travel ticket, denoting journey (from and to) and route inc + AP Slough, vadility IS

The second coupon is for the reservation for the journey into Paddington, thus why assumed it would be ok to go via Euston as I have no coupons denoting a validity for any other train other than the FGW into Paddington

One ticket plus one mandatory reservation coupon, yes. And yes I agree with your thoughts.

Sorry only gave you guys half of the information, need to sleep I think lol

So it seems I would gain 45 minutes at my final destination, or if I choose to reach my destination at 14:21 as planned I can visit the Euston Tap......

That's very naughty. The Euston Tap is arguably not within the station, so that could be argued to be a Break of journey!

Break of journey is permitted on all tickets unless it is "made clear" to you when you buy it that it isn't permitted. Unfortunately Advance tickets don't allow break of journey, and this should have been made clear to you when you bought it (in theory).

Of course, it's not detectable, but we cannot endorse it because it is forbidden.

On the other hand you are allowed to visit the eateries within Euston (or Paddington) station as that would not be a break of journey. I am not sure if it's still there or not, but there was a pub there (upstairs, it shares a staircase with the First Class lounge)

(What you do in practice is your business and an RPI isn't going to follow you around London to see if you break your journey)

 

[Hadders]

The official connection time between Padding and Euston is 43 minutes. The itinerary you have from National Rail only gives 41 minutes between arrival at Paddington at 1223 and departure from Euston at 1304. I assume you've selected the option to give less time to cross London.

I wouldn't anticipate an issue in doing PAD-EUS in 41 minutes but the reason you itinerary doesn't route you this way is that technically it's not an official connection.

 

[michael74]

Thank you all for your replies, just to make clear, I would of course not break my journey, not even for a delicious pint of Real Ale.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The official connection time between Padding and Euston is 43 minutes. The itinerary you have from National Rail only gives 41 minutes between arrival at Paddington at 1223 and departure from Euston at 1304. I assume you've selected the option to give less time to cross London.

I wouldn't anticipate an issue in doing PAD-EUS in 41 minutes but the reason you itinerary doesn't route you this way is that technically it's not an official connection.

But my tickets going home on the Sunday, they do route me from Watford Junct on the 09:53 fast train to Euston then the tube to Paddington etc etc. Which is why I questioned the route out.

 

[gray1404]

Your in luck, the 13.04 LM service from EUS is not reservable for Advance Ticket pruposes so your totally fine to catch that! Your also allowing at leave 5 minutes to chagne trains at Watford Junction, so if you happened to miss your connection leaving at 13.31 and had to wait for the next service at 14.16, you would be entitled to claim compensation under the LM Delay Repay Scheme (delays 30 minutes +)

 

[67018]

The official connection time between Padding and Euston is 43 minutes. The itinerary you have from National Rail only gives 41 minutes between arrival at Paddington at 1223 and departure from Euston at 1304. I assume you've selected the option to give less time to cross London.

I wouldn't anticipate an issue in doing PAD-EUS in 41 minutes but the reason you itinerary doesn't route you this way is that technically it's not an official connection.

Which is why the official journey planner is useless for cross London transfers - Paddington to Euston is comfortably walkable in 43 minutes! Unless the planner assumes it's compulsory to stop for a pint in the Euston Tap, of course.

 

[Hadders]

Which is why the official journey planner is useless for cross London transfers - Paddington to Euston is comfortably walkable in 43 minutes! Unless the planner assumes it's compulsory to stop for a pint in the Euston Tap, of course.

But 'we' know where we're going!

The journey planners (quite rightly) have to allow for people alighting from the country end at Paddington, dawdling along the platform to the Underground. Excess faff as they negotiate the gate line and escalators. More dawdling as they fail to get in the optimum carriage on the Underground for a speedy exit and more faff as they arrive at Euston and find their onward train.

Seriously many 'non-regulars' would consider 43 minutes extremely tight.

 

[gray1404]

Time for a rant. These "faff about" people really annoy me! They seem to get offended too (some of them) by those of us who know exactly where we are going on the network.

I boarded a LIV service at St Helens Central recently which arrived into LIV over 10 down. I had 90 seconds to get from platform 4 to 8 to get on the LM BHM service. I walked to the top of the train and someone had stated an unoffical que which ended just past the WC and didn't go anywhere near the door area. You should have seen the offance when I was really polite and asked if I could please pass by. I was then able to get to the door area. You should have seen the looks at got a going past and one person said "there is a que here". I responded with [train pulling into platform slowly] "I know but because this service is running late, I only have 90 seconds to get my connection and I'm trying to make it. I hope that's ok." To which they said nothing. Talk about an attitude of everyone else can be on a go slow with me.

Then when I got to platform 8, I discovered the installation of some new stupid gates that mean you have too walk (or in my case) "run" a bit of the way up the platform past the VT travel centre at LIV to go though some gates now that you just push open to get to the train on platform 8. Talk about restricting free movement on the station. You simply cannot get onto the platform at the end of it like before.

It was Grand National day and there where some flabby meat heads (sorry, really useful, friendly and super helpful security staff - that are so needed on the railway and we'd be lost without them.... NOT!) at the top of the platform so it would have been impossible for me to get though the other end (at which I saw they have also installed "exit gates to platform 8".

I made the train with seconds to spare (thankfully it departed 40 seconds down, waiting for singal clearence) on platform 8.

 

[Starmill]

If you put London Euston as a via point in future, you probably won't have this problem! You will get issued with a reservation coupon if it puts you on a reservable service (although that might influence the price of the Advance depending on the time of day - LM can restrict availability) but if you can get it to suggest the Tring service which is non-reservable then you will have exactly the same situation as now.

In my view, how appropriate a connecting train is doesn't relate to weather or not its non-reservable, faux-reservable, partly-reservable or really actually reservable Just what time it's at.

 

[bb21]

Wow, we don't half complicate a situation on here sometimes, do we?

My advice is get whichever LM service you can get from Euston if you go that way. I would be immensely surprised if you have any trouble at all, and if you do, I will be very happy to help you fight it.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There will almost certainly not be! A lot of emphasis has been placed on the theoretical in this thread, but this is only contentious on forums where train ticket geeks debate validity - not in real life.

 

[causton]

In reality, a lot of staff will let you start short or finish short on Advances around here*, so I doubt they would even check that you held a reservation coupon for that train for such a short distance, if your ticket got checked at all!


*As long as the train stops at the station; the people wanting to go to Preston and start short at Watford were not happy when we told them it was first stop Crewe!

 

[67018]

But 'we' know where we're going!

The journey planners (quite rightly) have to allow for people alighting from the country end at Paddington, dawdling along the platform to the Underground. Excess faff as they negotiate the gate line and escalators. More dawdling as they fail to get in the optimum carriage on the Underground for a speedy exit and more faff as they arrive at Euston and find their onward train.

Seriously many 'non-regulars' would consider 43 minutes extremely tight.

This might be what they allow for, and it's what I find objectionable. People who faff around at the wrong end of a platform, dawdle along and negotiate lifts/gates/escalators slowly are just as likely to miss their connection at any other station. In the meantime, the majority that don't do this lack a useful journey planner that gives them an accurate time to plan a connection, and are just as likely to not bother or drive instead because the rail journey looks ridiculously slow.

A preferable solution would be more realistic connection times with a 'limited mobility' option which people could use if they prefer - and offer slacker connections at *all* stations.

 

[Starmill]

There will almost certainly not be! A lot of emphasis has been placed on the theoretical in this thread, but this is only contentious on forums where train ticket geeks debate validity - not in real life.

From the man who has been chucked off a train by an LM guard, that is

 

[ASharpe]

Could someone please tell me the correct method for establishing whether or not a train is reservable? I get the impression that looking at the National Rail Timetable might not be enough.

Is this information published by Network Rail, ATOC or the TOCs in another publicly accessible form?

 

[Starmill]

Could someone please tell me the correct method for establishing whether or not a train is reservable? I get the impression that looking at the National Rail Timetable might not be enough.

Is this information published by Network Rail, ATOC or the TOCs in another publicly accessible form?

BRTimes is an exceptionally helpful (but unofficial so far as I know) source.
See this for tomorrow: trains with a diamond icon are reservable. None on that list have it, but a white R on a black square (or a filled in diamond) means that reservations are not just available but recommend (I'm not quite sure what this means in practice these days - http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=...board?stn=YRK&filt=KGX&date=20150429&show=dep seems a very strange train to need a reservation on!). The Sleepers have a black R on a white square - meaning that reservations are compulsory.

 

[ASharpe]

BRTimes is an exceptionally helpful (but unofficial so far as I know) source.
See this for tomorrow: trains with a diamond icon are reservable. None on that list have it, but a white R on a black square (or a filled in diamond) means that reservations are not just available but recommend (I'm not quite sure what this means in practice these days - http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=...board?stn=YRK&filt=KGX&date=20150429&show=dep seems a very strange train to need a reservation on!). The Sleepers have a black R on a white square - meaning that reservations are compulsory.

That works fine for an actual reservation. But in the context of counted place reservations it doesn't help.

 

[yorkie]

Could someone please tell me the correct method for establishing whether or not a train is reservable? I get the impression that looking at the National Rail Timetable might not be enough.

Is this information published by Network Rail, ATOC or the TOCs in another publicly accessible form?

The diamond symbol tends to be used even when a train is not really reservable but has counted place reservations.

It's utterly bonkers and counter-intuitive and hopefully one day something will be done about it. However with no effective Regulator, no ombudsman and no proper watchdog with any actual bite, I suspect nothing will happen, and the misleading and contradictory information will continue unabated.

 

[PermitToTravel]

From the man who has been chucked off a train by an LM guard, that is

That was fun

It was also a completely unrelated incomparable situation, and I stand by my advice.

That works fine for an actual reservation. But in the context of counted place reservations it doesn't help.

From the point of view of the timetable, counted place reservations are still reservations

 

[yorkie]

In reality, a lot of staff will let you start short or finish short on Advances around here*...

I know you know this, but for anyone reading this who didn't already know it and is wondering, the policy of the rail industry is to allow finishing short on Advances without charge, although the rules do allow for an excess fare to be charged (of the difference between the price paid for the ticket held and the lowest price walk-up ticket that would have allowed the actual journey made).

 

[yorkie]

If you put London Euston as a via point in future, you probably won't have this problem! You will get issued with a reservation coupon if it puts you on a reservable service (although that might influence the price of the Advance depending on the time of day - LM can restrict availability) but if you can get it to suggest the Tring service which is non-reservable then you will have exactly the same situation as now.

In my view, how appropriate a connecting train is doesn't relate to weather or not its non-reservable, faux-reservable, partly-reservable or really actually reservable Just what time it's at.

Agreed.

Just to expand upon your suggestion, this can be achieved on Trainsplit.com by specifying 'Stop At: HRW' on Trainsplit using Advanced Options (see attached screenshot).

(It can also be achieved on Atos WebTIS sites but you have to faff around in 'Timetables only' mode)

 

[michael74]

As a matter interest, I did the same day/time departure but added via Euston and the price was no different, however it put me on the 13:17 Overground to Watford getting me there at the same time if I did go via Queens Park and then the same train, and still not wanting me to get the fast train.

Thank you all for your help, my brain hurts now lol.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's very naughty. The Euston Tap is arguably not within the station, so that could be argued to be a Break of journey!)

The tube ticket allows you to go via Euston Square (which IME is quicker than the carnage at Oxford Circus) and both the Bree and the Tap are on your journey from Euston Square into Euston station.

So long as you don't stop walking in the pub you'll be fine

Connection time at Watford Junction is seven minutes isn't it?

 

[RJ]

Connection time at Watford Junction is seven minutes isn't it?

5 minutes according to BR Times, a site which provides an incredibly useful insight into the data that the booking engines run off. I've used it to identify some very favourable itineraries!

 

[Starmill]

As a matter interest, I did the same day/time departure but added via Euston and the price was no different, however it put me on the 13:17 Overground to Watford getting me there at the same time if I did go via Queens Park and then the same train, and still not wanting me to get the fast train.

Or that. That has exactly the same effect, and in that case you are still perfectly free to use London Overground, or the Tring service, or the Bakerloo line OR in my view, any other LM service. So the only time there's a disadvantage is when the booking engine suggests that you use a train which IS reservable, as in that case you will be issued with a reservation coupon for a train you must travel on.