Prospective MP convicted in ticket fraud

[Realfish]

Harking back to the many conversations on here regarding bank card payments, the Labour General Election Candidate for Wellingborough, Richard Garvie was convicted of fraud yesterday after buying £900 worth of rail tickets using a bank card from an account closed in 2011.

How he managed to continue to transact on a closed account that was £2k overdrawn is a puzzle.

I note that he has now been suspended from his Party but he remains a candidate. He should do well if elected.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...uspended-after-conviction-for-fraud-1-6719687

The Labour Party has suspended its Wellingborough and Rushden Parliamentary candidate after he was found guilty of fraud after buying train tickets worth almost £900 using a card for a closed bank account.

Richard Garvie, 30, of Rowlett Road, Corby, who denied the charges, said he “intentionally” ran up the debt because, although he knew he did not have sufficient money in the account to pay for the 17 different transactions, he believed his bank would honour the payments.

Fred Sagoe, prosecuting, said: “He was arrested in April 2014 after making numerous payments with a bank card he knew was for an empty account.”
Garvie was charged with fraud after he bought £890 of East Midlands Trains tickets between Kettering and London St Pancras over the course of a year through the account, as well as tickets with other train lines.

The account was closed in 2011 when it became £2,000 overdrawn.

Representing himself at Wellingborough Magistrates’ Court today, Garvie said: “I fully accept it was the case that purchases were made using an account that was overdrawn...

 

[WillPS]

Were cheques still accepted in 2011?

 

[ian959]

Given the general self interest of most politicians, he will fit right in to parliament...

 

[Realfish]

Were cheques still accepted in 2011?

The story implies that the fares were paid for by a Bank Card. You could be right though he might have used a cheque guarantee card.

I see that he had previous and said, 'There have been other incidences where I haven’t paid penalty fare notices because I did not feel I should have to.'

He considers his offences 'misdemeanours'.

 

[greatkingrat]

I assume he bought the tickets on-train and the transactions went through offline, so the fact the card was no longer valid wasn't flagged up.

 

[strowger]

I assume he bought the tickets on-train and the transactions went through offline, so the fact the card was no longer valid wasn't flagged up.

That was my assumption also.

The comments on the article have been "cleaned up" now, there were some extremely unpleasant and clearly defamatory claims in them earlier in the day.

 

[35B]

Harking back to the many conversations on here regarding bank card payments, the Labour General Election Candidate for Wellingborough, Richard Garvie was convicted of fraud yesterday after buying £900 worth of rail tickets using a bank card from an account closed in 2011.

How he managed to continue to transact on a closed account that was £2k overdrawn is a puzzle.

I note that he has now been suspended from his Party but he remains a candidate. He should do well if elected.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...uspended-after-conviction-for-fraud-1-6719687

Unlikely he'll be elected - a shire seat, with 11000 majority. Does suggest though that he won't be able to use it as experience to get a winnable seat in future.

 

[WillPS]

I assume he bought the tickets on-train and the transactions went through offline, so the fact the card was no longer valid wasn't flagged up.

My understanding is that equipment that processes transactions online has a database of cancelled card numbers which it should check against; I have no knowledge of how often ticket machines are updated though.

Disclaimer: this is my understanding and not a statement of fact.

 

[island]

My understanding is that equipment that processes transactions online has a database of cancelled card numbers which it should check against; I have no knowledge of how often ticket machines are updated though.

Disclaimer: this is my understanding and not a statement of fact.

This is correct although the database is primarily for stolen cards rather than closed accounts. Those older posters may recall in the dim and distant past cards being checked against a paper list of "hot" cards before payment was processed on an imprinter.

 

[185]

I've seen Scheidt & Bachman machines at my company which were accepting Solo/Electron cards at one point. The machines can be set up in two ways....

Normal State: Check funds - Bank auth line available - funds ok - auth & take money
Fault State 1: Check funds - No bank auth available - funds unknown - auth anyway
Fault State 2: Check funds - No bank auth available - funds unknown - refuse auth

IMO, any company that accepts a debit/credit card without online authorisation in this day and age should carry the loss off their own back. If a card is stopped, overdrawn, blocked, stolen - the auth-clearance/Bacs system when working can stop it, and should.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The story implies that the fares were paid for by a Bank Card. You could be right though he might have used a cheque guarantee card.

I see that he had previous and said, 'There have been other incidences where I haven’t paid penalty fare notices because I did not feel I should have to.'

He considers his offences 'misdemeanours'.

...he sounds almost as pleasant a chap as Peter Bone, Wellingborough's current MP. I wonder what it is about the place.

 

[westcoaster]

...he sounds almost as pleasant a chap as Peter Bone, Wellingborough's current MP. I wonder what it is about the place.

And neither of these two live in wellingborough, Mr bone is iirc in rushden on nearby and the labour chap lives in corby. Even worse the UKIP chap is a DR from london, as there was no one else.

Wellingborough is not a bad place just some odd folk.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume he bought the tickets on-train and the transactions went through offline, so the fact the card was no longer valid wasn't flagged up.

This is also what i heard, he even had a mugshot up in messrooms warning staff not to sell him tickets

 

[swt_passenger]

This is also what i heard, he even had a mugshot up in messrooms warning staff not to sell him tickets

He tries to explain that away (in the linked article) as EMT having it in for him because he helps other passengers avoid higher fares:

He said: “I have been active in helping people who have been treated wrongly by train companies and charged more than they should have been, to the point where train company staff employees have told me there are pictures of me in the staff room, telling them not to sell me tickets.

“I believe this issue is to get back at me.

Is this really the calibre of parliamentary candidates to be expected today?

 

[ASharpe]

He surely can't be the only parliamentary candidate to refuse to apologise or accept responsibility for running a budget deficit.

I would have thought Labour would have done a better job of vetting their candidates.

 

[Jonny]

He surely can't be the only parliamentary candidate to refuse to apologise or accept responsibility for running a budget deficit.

I would have thought Labour would have done a better job of vetting their candidates.

What, like the whole Liebour oops I meant Labour party?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would have thought Labour would have done a better job of vetting their candidates.

I don't know the full details but I suspect it would have been difficult for any reasonable vetting process to have discovered this. It looks like he was only found guilty a few days ago, and most candidates are selected a long time in advance (often well over a year) in order to give them time to make themselves known locally etc. I don't know when Richard Garvie was actually selected, but it could well have been before any of the prosecution process started.

 

[WillPS]

This is correct although the database is primarily for stolen cards rather than closed accounts. Those older posters may recall in the dim and distant past cards being checked against a paper list of "hot" cards before payment was processed on an imprinter.

Ah, so cards associated with closed accounts are not/were not featured on these electronic hot lists? That's interesting. Probably explains how this occurred then.

I suppose until the Current Account Switch Guarantee you were supposed to return all cards/stationary when closing an account (although the only time I ever did, with A&L/Santander, they just accepted a statement from me saying I'd destroyed them all).

 

[Abpj17]

“If East Midlands Trains had given me the opportunity to pay for the tickets when the situation came to light, I would have done so.”

Seriously - he tried that line after using a card for a closed account?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Now following on from a previous thread. I thought the banks could change the cards at will to online only authorisation and that the whole reasoning of it was to deal with people closing their accounts.

 

[najaB]

Now following on from a previous thread. I thought the banks could change the cards at will to online only authorisation and that the whole reasoning of it was to deal with people closing their accounts.

"Can" and "do" aren't the same thing. I'm also fairly sure they would need access to the card - either in branch or one of their ATMs to make the change.

 

[richw]

I expect offline transactions.
It should be added that even at ticket offices FGW are using offline transactions for less than £20. I imagine this may be common at other TOCs as well.

 

[island]

Now following on from a previous thread. I thought the banks could change the cards at will to online only authorisation and that the whole reasoning of it was to deal with people closing their accounts.

Rewriting the chip settings on the fly is not a trivial endeavour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, so cards associated with closed accounts are not/were not featured on these electronic hot lists? That's interesting. Probably explains how this occurred then.

I suppose until the Current Account Switch Guarantee you were supposed to return all cards/stationary when closing an account (although the only time I ever did, with A&L/Santander, they just accepted a statement from me saying I'd destroyed them all).

Yes correct – you are supposed to give back the card before the account can be closed. Honoured mostly in the breach these days.

 

[Flamingo]

I would have thought Labour would have done a better job of vetting their candidates.

To be fair, how would Labour have known this was in the pipeline? It would have depended on the fare-dodging scrote telling them.

And if he was amoral enough to do a fraud on this scale, I would imaging that lying convincingly enough to say he had no skeletons in the cupboard would have been no problem.

I would like to be a fly on the wall at his next local party meeting, though. I'd say the popcorn would run out!

 

[455driver]

I'd say the popcorn would run out!

ssshhh, you cant say that anymore!

 

[Flamingo]

ssshhh, you cant say that anymore!

I didn't say I would be supplying it!

 

[6Gman]

To be fair, how would Labour have known this was in the pipeline? It would have depended on the fare-dodging scrote telling them.

And if he was amoral enough to do a fraud on this scale, I would imaging that lying convincingly enough to say he had no skeletons in the cupboard would have been no problem.

I would like to be a fly on the wall at his next local party meeting, though. I'd say the popcorn would run out!

I think we can assume that Wellingborough will have a different Labour candidate in 2020!

 

[thelongestroad]

IMO, any company that accepts a debit/credit card without online authorisation in this day and age should carry the loss off their own back. If a card is stopped, overdrawn, blocked, stolen - the auth-clearance/Bacs system when working can stop it, and should.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Clearly these tickets were purchased via Avantix, and thus it doesn't know any better when it's authorised via chip and pin.

Roll on Avantix: The Next Generation.

 

[cjmillsnun]

IMO, any company that accepts a debit/credit card without online authorisation in this day and age should carry the loss off their own back. If a card is stopped, overdrawn, blocked, stolen - the auth-clearance/Bacs system when working can stop it, and should.

That kills ANY card purchase via Avantix, duty free bought on a plane, most things from airshows or other mobile events (the mobile phone lines that the vendors use normally get overloaded), in short, unless you're in a bricks and mortar location or an internet retailer, you may as well stop accepting cards.

The understanding for Chip and PIN is that the liability rests with the banks. The amount of card misuse has reduced considerably since its introduction. The main card misuse is actually down to cashpoint skimming nowadays.

 

[Hadders]

IMO, any company that accepts a debit/credit card without online authorisation in this day and age should carry the loss off their own back. If a card is stopped, overdrawn, blocked, stolen - the auth-clearance/Bacs system when working can stop it, and should.

Online authorisation isn't routine in the UK. Most retailers have a floor limit (say £50 although it does vary) and only transactions above this amount will seek online authorisation.

Only transactions that mandate online authorisation are Electron cards ( now just badged as normal Visa Debit cards) and we often have threads on thsi forum about the difficulties in using them.

 

[WillPS]

Online authorisation isn't routine in the UK. Most retailers have a floor limit (say £50 although it does vary) and only transactions above this amount will seek online authorisation.

Only transactions that mandate online authorisation are Electron cards ( now just badged as normal Visa Debit cards) and we often have threads on thsi forum about the difficulties in using them.

This isn't true, certainly not "most retailers" - more like a couple of handfuls of the bigger ones. I would say most retailers will seek online authorisation for the majority of transactions now.