Slightly odd VT West Coast ECS move

[najaB]

Hi all,

Just passed this ECS move at Carstairs - it strikes me as a little odd. The train comes from Edinburgh, goes south at Carstairs, stops on the main line while the driver changes ends and then goes north up to Polmadie. Is there a particular reason why they do this - is it to turn the unit?

 

[Crossover]

I don't think that move will turn the unit - but would presumably be an opportunity to do so. Changing ends would suggest it is done to keep First Class at the London end of the train

 

[92002]

Hi all,

Just passed this ECS move at Carstairs - it strikes me as a little odd. The train comes from Edinburgh, goes south at Carstairs, stops on the main line while the driver changes ends and then goes north up to Polmadie. Is there a particular reason why they do this - is it to turn the unit?

The WCML is closed this weekend, at Law Junction, Motherwell and Newton. With buses running to Carlisle.

So will be a maintenance move to Polmadie, presumably gong via Holytown and Whifflet.

 

[najaB]

The WCML is closed this weekend, at Law Junction, Motherwell and Newton. With buses running to Carlisle.

So will be a maintenance move to Polmadie, presumably gong via Holytown and Whifflet.

Fair enough - but why stop on the mainline and change ends rather then just turning 'right' at Carstairs? Also, it's in the long-term rather than short-term plan.

 

[Tomnick]

I don't think it was anything to do with that block - it's booked to (and did) run through the named locations! Is the reversal at Carstairs simply to keep the unit the right way round? If it worked down from London to Edinburgh, back to Polmadie without a reversal at Carstairs and then formed an Up service from Glasgow the next morning, it would have been turned by passing over all three sides of the triangle in turn.

 

[najaB]

I don't think that move will turn the unit - but would presumably be an opportunity to do so. Changing ends would suggest it is done to keep First Class at the London end of the train

In my head it does turn the unit, but maybe I'm looking at things wrong. Look at the map, if the unit comes from Edinburgh (from the right) and takes the right-hand curve it won't be turned as it heads up north to Glasgow.

However, this move takes the left-hand curve then stops on the mainline. The driver has to change ends to take the train to Glasgow - if (s)he's changing ends to make the same journey then it must have been turned around.
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I don't think it was anything to do with that block - it's booked to (and did) run through the named locations! Is the reversal at Carstairs simply to keep the unit the right way round? If it worked down from London to Edinburgh, back to Polmadie without a reversal at Carstairs and then formed an Up service from Glasgow the next morning, it would have been turned by passing over all three sides of the triangle in turn.

Of course - that explains why it's a FO move, as the Saturday timetable is different to the weekday. Thanks!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are 2 VT ECS moves each way between Polmadie and Edinburgh, and the other 3 all run direct via Carstairs North/East Jns.
But they are all Voyagers, 5S80 being the only Pendolino.
Maybe they are not as fussed at keeping Voyagers the same way round (and doubled up will have separate 1st class sections anyway).
Another way of avoiding turning is to use the same unit for the reverse working.

 

[TUC]

I don't think that move will turn the unit - but would presumably be an opportunity to do so. Changing ends would suggest it is done to keep First Class at the London end of the train

What a terrible thought for London First Class passengers, to have to walk to the other end of the train to find their carriage.

 

[Tomnick]

What a terrible thought for London First Class passengers, to have to walk to the other end of the train to find their carriage.

Have you ever seen the chaos at a major station when a train unexpectedly arrives the wrong way round? There's sometimes hundreds of passengers all trying to get to the opposite end of the platform, possibly wheelchairs, cycles and catering trolleys in the wrong place - just avoiding that confusion, for me, justifies the effort to keep them the right way round!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Have you ever seen the chaos at a major station when a train unexpectedly arrives the wrong way round? There's sometimes hundreds of passengers all trying to get to the opposite end of the platform, possibly wheelchairs, cycles and catering trolleys in the wrong place - just avoiding that confusion, for me, justifies the effort to keep them the right way round!

Indeed. Always bemuses me when there's a mad dash as a 390 draws in in reverse formation. I wouldn't mind so much but someone has known for the last two hours that the unit is the wrong way around, yet that never seem to extend to the platform staff or customer information screens. Can easily cost you 90 seconds at the busier stations, which adds up by the fourth or fifth stop...

 

[Class 170101]

Indeed. Always bemuses me when there's a mad dash as a 390 draws in in reverse formation. I wouldn't mind so much but someone has known for the last two hours that the unit is the wrong way around, yet that never seem to extend to the platform staff or customer information screens. Can easily cost you 90 seconds at the busier stations, which adds up by the fourth or fifth stop...

Not guaranteed if Control have been busy trying to recover a fatality elsewhere. Having units the wrong way is easily done and whilst its a pain, not one of the most important things to worry out on the railway.

 

[dvboy]

It's not so much of a problem at Euston, as it is at somewhere like Birmingham New Street where if a train is the wrong way round, the chaos on the narrow platform will inevitably leads to delays.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not guaranteed if Control have been busy trying to recover a fatality elsewhere. Having units the wrong way is easily done and whilst its a pain, not one of the most important things to worry out on the railway.

Indeed, however on most of the occasions I can remember it happening they have been pretty easy going, run of the mill days (such a thing seemingly doesn't exist on the WCML any more!). I fully understand in disruption it's a minor detail, but I find it hard to believe members of staff are incapable of communicating it between themselves on a normal day. For example, if you take a Glasgow-Euston in reverse formation, by the time that hits Lancaster, Preston etc someone has known for at least two hours it's the wrong way around. It says a lot if no-one can communicate that...

 

[dggar]

Indeed. Always bemuses me when there's a mad dash as a 390 draws in in reverse formation. I wouldn't mind so much but someone has known for the last two hours that the unit is the wrong way around, yet that never seem to extend to the platform staff or customer information screens. Can easily cost you 90 seconds at the busier stations, which adds up by the fourth or fifth stop...

I have seen trains at Stockport and Wigan North Western being advertised as being in reverse formation, with a message on the station PA system, before the arrival of the train

 

[route:oxford]

If this was booked as a Voyager, it could be be extended to Stirling (or Dunblane) and do the reversal in revenue earning service and give new through journey opportunities before toddling down to Polmadie.

Maybe one day with a Pendy when the route is electrified too.

 

[Pollo]

If this was booked as a Voyager, it could be be extended to Stirling (or Dunblane) and do the reversal in revenue earning service and give new through journey opportunities before toddling down to Polmadie.

Maybe one day with a Pendy when the route is electrified too.

Except the Drivers don't have the route knowledge to Stirling/ Dunblane

 

[Aictos]

In my head it does turn the unit, but maybe I'm looking at things wrong. Look at the map, if the unit comes from Edinburgh (from the right) and takes the right-hand curve it won't be turned as it heads up north to Glasgow.

However, this move takes the left-hand curve then stops on the mainline. The driver has to change ends to take the train to Glasgow - if (s)he's changing ends to make the same journey then it must have been turned around.

I disagree as if they took the route direct to Glasgow from Edinburgh as in take the right hand curve then the First Class would then be at the Scotland end of the train and not at the London end, however if they took the left hand curve as in the route to London then First Class would still be at the London end.

Sorry but this time, you are mistaken.

 

[Crossover]

I disagree as if they took the route direct to Glasgow from Edinburgh as in take the right hand curve then the First Class would then be at the Scotland end of the train and not at the London end, however if they took the left hand curve as in the route to London then First Class would still be at the London end.

Sorry but this time, you are mistaken.

Exactly what I was trying to say - think you've done so a bit more clearly though!

 

[Aictos]

Exactly what I was trying to say - think you've done so a bit more clearly though!

No worries!!!

 

[najaB]

I disagree as if they took the route direct to Glasgow from Edinburgh as in take the right hand curve then the First Class would then be at the Scotland end of the train and not at the London end, however if they took the left hand curve as in the route to London then First Class would still be at the London end.

We're actually saying the same thing - as explained above by Tomnick, if a train was to run from London to Edinburgh, run ECS Edinburgh to Glasgow (without the reversing move) and then run Glasgow to London it would traverse all three sides of the triangle in order and hence be turned around.

My statement that the set would be turned (by this reversing move) was based on the assumption that it would return to Edinburgh in the morning and then run south from there. This reversing move is made to avoid turning the set so that it's the right way around for the Glasgow to London run on Saturday morning.