Split Ticketing and condition 19c

[stevetay3]

Hi all. If i catch a direct service from Reading to Plymouth, Would a split at Westbury using the following tickets be valid.

SVR. Reading - Westbury
FOSW Rover Westbury - Plymouth

Condition 16c says the train need not call at split point station if one ticket is a season, The thing is the fast services go via the avoiding line at Westbury and not through the station, Is this ok

Thanks. Steve

 

[maniacmartin]

For some stations, this is a bit of a grey area. However, in the case of Westbury I think you would have trouble convincing anyone that the avoiding line is part of Westbury station. Looking at the train, Westbury isn't even listed as a timing point.

I don't think your ticket split is valid on such trains

 

[greatkingrat]

The avoiding lines are not shown separately on the FGW Network Map so I think it is reasonable to assume that all trains between Newbury and Taunton are considered to pass through Westbury.

I don't think there is any requirement for passengers to have to search through working timetables and Quail Maps to work out the exact route a train will take.

If you were splitting at Weston-Super-Mare on a fast train that might be slightly more dubious.

 

[jkdd77]

I think this is analogous to a Didcot season/ non-season split on non-stopping trains using the avoiding lines, which is generally considered, including by FGW themselves, to be valid, and hence I think that this would be valid.

 

[yorkie]

Weston-super-Mare is clearly a separate line, similar to Northampton, with so such a ticket should not be assumed to be valid (though in practice may well be accepted; I'd suggest asking permission first).

Didcot is clearly passed on non-stop trains; there doesn't have to be a platform face on the platforms! Clearly this would be valid without question and there is much evidence to back this up.

Westbury is a grey area though. I'd suggest asking FGW for their view on this.

 

[Haywain]

I have used this split several times without any problems.

 

[Starmill]

The avoiding lines are not shown separately on the FGW Network Map so I think it is reasonable to assume that all trains between Newbury and Taunton are considered to pass through Westbury.

I don't think there is any requirement for passengers to have to search through working timetables and Quail Maps to work out the exact route a train will take.

If you were splitting at Weston-Super-Mare on a fast train that might be slightly more dubious.

That map btw is hilarious. It lists every station on the Borderlands line between Wrexham and Hawarden - but then doesn't show Shotton, the interchange with the main line, even though there is room for it! It's a First Great Western Map on which Buckenham (Norfolk), Prees, Yorton, Brigg, Kirton Lindsey, Broomfleet, New Clee, Shawford and Elton & Orston are named, but on which Bramley (Hants) and Mortimer are not, even though there's loads of room to, trains serve there regularly and they are FGW trains!!!!

 

[158801]

So could I use an Annual season ticket from Reading to Swindon and an Off Peak Return from Didcot to Plymouth and catch a train that went direct (via Newbury & Westbury) ?

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for the train to pass through the station where the tickets change over

 

[bb21]

So could I use an Annual season ticket from Reading to Swindon and an Off Peak Return from Didcot to Plymouth and catch a train that went direct (via Newbury & Westbury) ?

Yes, because Didcot to Plymouth is permitted via Reading and Newbury. The season ticket does not come into the equation in this case.

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for the train to pass through the station where the tickets change over

If the train did not pass through the station where the tickets change over, how would the tickets "together cover the entire journey" (wording of Condition 19)? Of course the train needs to pass the change-over station.

In your previous example, if Didcot to Plymouth were not permitted via Reading, your combination would not be valid via Newbury, but would be valid via Swindon.

 

[Haywain]

So could I use an Annual season ticket from Reading to Swindon and an Off Peak Return from Didcot to Plymouth and catch a train that went direct (via Newbury & Westbury) ?

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for the train to pass through the station where the tickets change over

I agree with your interpretation, but previous experience suggests that on the forum we are in a minority.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Didcot is clearly passed on non-stop trains; there doesn't have to be a platform face on the platforms! Clearly this would be valid without question and there is much evidence to back this up...

If the train passes through the station then I see no problem (all through lines have platforms at Didcot Parkway), but if you refer to the "Didcot Avoiding Lines", some might say that the clue is in the name....

....Westbury is a grey area though. I'd suggest asking FGW for their view on this.

Westbury station is as far from the avoiding lines as Redhill is from the Quarry lines, about 0.25 miles.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I agree with your interpretation, but previous experience suggests that on the forum we are in a minority.

Assuming that Didcot to Plymouth is not valid via Reading (I haven't checked), wouldn't one be travelling without a ticket from Reading to Taunton?

 

[bnm]

To avoid any issues, save encountering a TM who denies 19(c) applies to Rovers (had one say that to me recently), and to appease the HHF's of this world, then the OP could just buy a SVR London Terminals - Bruton (route: Via Newbury). Same price as the equivalent ticket to Westbury.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I love the sentiment, but not the apostrophe

 

[kieron]

For some stations, this is a bit of a grey area. However, in the case of Westbury I think you would have trouble convincing anyone that the avoiding line is part of Westbury station. Looking at the train, Westbury isn't even listed as a timing point.

Luckily, you don't have to in this case. If you say the avoiding line is not part of Westbury station, you reason as follows:

An off peak return between Reading and Westbury is valid for break of journey anywhere along a valid route.
WE is a valid map for a journey from Reading to Westbury (and vice versa).
This allows the journey Reading Group-Newbury-Westbury Group.
If someone was to travel between Newbury and Westbury Group following this map without doubling back through any stations or passing through a station which is a routeing point, or part of one, en route, there are a number of ways to do it.

Newbury-...-Pewsey-Westbury
Newbury-...-Pewsey-Frome-Wesbury
Newbury-...-Pewsey-Frome-Bruton-Westbury
Newbury-...-Pewsey-Bruton-Westbury
Newbury-...-Pewsey-Bruton-Frome-Westbury

I haven't checked that there are trains you could use for all of these journeys. My point is that you can switch to the rover as your train passes through Bruton, and not worry about any of this.

If, on the other hand, you assert that a train which uses the avoiding line passes through Westbury station, you can switch from one to the other there.

The only set of assumptions I can see on which you would have a problem would be if you assert that Westbury station includes the avoiding line for some purposes, but not others. I can't think why anyone would do this, though.

 

[reb0118]

HHF's

I love the sentiment, but not the apostrophe

I tend to agree with you. The s above is clearly plural so no possessive apostrophe is required -however, you could argue that the apostrophe is required because HHF is a contraction of Hairy Handed Fool - I am not convinced by this though.

Back on topic, in the Didcot and Westbury examples above, I would tend to accept the combination of tickets, esp. if asked prior to, or close to, boarding.

 

[Paul Kelly]

From the point of view of what booking engines see, the data in ATOC's "Master Station Names" file (downloadable as part of the timetable data at http://data.atoc.org/) deems, in a similar way to Didcot North Junction and Didcot East Junction being part of Didcot station, Heywood Road Junction and Fairwood Junction (either end of the Westbury avoiding line) to be part of Westbury station.

So to booking engines, trains using the Westbury avoiding line (as well as trains using the Westbury East Loop, which are also timed at Heywood Road Junction) will appear to pass through Westbury station.

 

[LexyBoy]

If the train passes through the station then I see no problem (all through lines have platforms at Didcot Parkway), but if you refer to the "Didcot Avoiding Lines", some might say that the clue is in the name...

In dozens and dozens of journeys, the only issues I've had were with a few XC guards who didn't know about Condition 19(c). Never a question over the precise tracks used either on purchasing or presenting tickets - as well there shouldn't be as there's no way of knowing whether the train you're on will go through the station or on the avoiding lines!

If the train did not pass through the station where the tickets change over, how would the tickets "together cover the entire journey" (wording of Condition 19)? Of course the train needs to pass the change-over station.

Simply reading Condition 19 doesn't make it clear cut to me. "Cover the entire journey" can be read as meaning "join to form a journey from A to C" instead of "have validity on every mile of route used".

I agree that in practice it certainly has the latter interpretation, but this isn't unambiguous to the ley reader. Indeed, previous discussion suggests that in BR days the former interpretation was closer (certainly in less extreme cases, e.g. Northampton on the WCML).

 

[stevetay3]

I made this trip in reverse last Monday,on passing Westbury on the avoider 1 did wonder that this may be a grey area. This is why I asked you guys for an opinion on this. I actually traveled from Liskerd to Reading,and the train manager appeared quite quickly and did not question my combination of tickets,and was quite happy for me to upgrade to 1st and very nice it was in one of the recently rebuilt coaches. Thanks for all the response to my question.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... -however, you could argue that the apostrophe is required because HHF is a contraction of Hairy Handed Fool - I am not convinced by this though....

Would that not have to be H'H'F's though?

 

[bb21]

Simply reading Condition 19 doesn't make it clear cut to me. "Cover the entire journey" can be read as meaning "join to form a journey from A to C" instead of "have validity on every mile of route used".

I agree that in practice it certainly has the latter interpretation, but this isn't unambiguous to the ley reader. Indeed, previous discussion suggests that in BR days the former interpretation was closer (certainly in less extreme cases, e.g. Northampton on the WCML).

I can see where you are coming from. I find Old Timer's arguments most intriguing and not one I have encountered before.

That said, a literal interpretation of the condition imo still implies that the whole route would need to be covered, but I appreciate that different interpretations may be derived.

 

[adrock1976]

I have just had a thought here based on a real - life experience I had last October.

I was travelling on one of the top of the hour departures from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. Normally, this runs non-stop to York. However, on that occasion due to earlier disruption and a cancellation of one of the Leeds services, the train made an additional call at Doncaster i.e routed on to the track that has platforms intead of passing through on the avoiding lines in the middle.

The hypothetical scenario would be this: Would a London - Doncaster season, combined with a non-Advance ticket Doncaster - Edinburgh, be valid on the top of the hour departures that normally has the first calling point York, with the train normally being routed on the middle pair of tracks at Doncaster when passing through?

In peace

Adam

 

[bb21]

Yes, of course.

 

[jkdd77]

If, as appears to be the case, both NRE and TOC online journey planners show a Reading- Plymouth journey as being routed 'via Westbury', and the NRE network map makes no distinction between Westbury station and the avoiding line, then, in my view, the passenger is entitled to assume that the train goes via Westbury.