EMU classes 507 & 508

[Old Yard Dog]

Pardon my ignorance but can anybody tell me the difference between a class 507 & a class 508 EMU? I have been travelling on Merseyrail for 35 years and still cannot tell them apart.

 

[rebmcr]

508s used to be four-car. They were also built later in a different batch, intended for a different area.

 

[fowler9]

Don't the 508's have panels over where the door open buttons used to be? Something slightly different with the under floor equipment as well?

 

[8J]

507's

- Built for the Merseyrail network
- Designed as 3 car sets
- One compressor in the DMS/A vehicle

508's

- Built for the southern region but later transferred to Merseyrail
- Designed as 4 car sets (the 4th car can now be found inserted in SWT Class 455/7 units)
- 2 older style compressors found in the DMS/A and TSO vehicles

Also there are slight differences in the cab layouts and when going over a section gap the lights are prone to cut out on 508's but not 507's

 

[Juniper Driver]

http://www.villagematters.co.uk/shepperton-matters/2013/03/the-shepperton-train-crash

In their very early days the 508's were on the South Western division as this pic shows of a 508 parked up at Shepperton.The 455/7's have a souvenir trailer coach from the original 508 4 car set.The older drivers used to talk about these units and how good the brakes were,didn't they have rheo?

 

[455driver]

http://www.villagematters.co.uk/shepperton-matters/2013/03/the-shepperton-train-crash

In their very early days the 508's were on the South Western division as this pic shows of a 508 parked up at Shepperton.The 455/7's have a souvenir trailer coach from the original 508 4 car set.The older drivers used to talk about these units and how good the brakes were,didn't they have rheo?

That article is wrong, it was the first (empty) train of the day (hence the lack of an accident report), I used to work with the driver concerned, he has quite a clear memory of it.

The day before this incident the Shepperton branch was cut off due to engineering work so they decided to use it for low adhesion trials with the 508s, To lower the adhesion available they had covered the rails in all sorts of slippery liquid but when they finished they didn't bother cleaning the rails, the result was the first train approached Shepperton running on good railhead up to that point but on encountering the contamination the train just carried on through the buffers and over the wall.

No rheo on them.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 508's were originally intended for Merseyside like the 507 whose order had been reduced for budgetary reasons, but during construction were diverted to the Southern region to temporarily cover for the late delivery of class 455.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 508's were originally intended for Merseyside like the 507 whose order had been reduced for budgetary reasons, but during construction were diverted to the Southern region to temporarily cover for the late delivery of class 455.

So was the original plan for a mix of 3 and 4-car units on Merseyside?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So was the original plan for a mix of 3 and 4-car units on Merseyside?

Don't think so, the plan was I think always to remove a vehicle before sending them north.

 

[Juniper Driver]

That article is wrong, it was the first (empty) train of the day (hence the lack of an accident report), I used to work with the driver concerned, he has quite a clear memory of it.

The day before this incident the Shepperton branch was cut off due to engineering work so they decided to use it for low adhesion trials with the 508s, To lower the adhesion available they had covered the rails in all sorts of slippery liquid but when they finished they didn't bother cleaning the rails, the result was the first train approached Shepperton running on good railhead up to that point but on encountering the contamination the train just carried on through the buffers and over the wall.

No rheo on them.

Good point regarding empty train.

Was it 507's that had rheo then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both classes *seem* to decelerate under power.

 

[WatcherZero]

Don't think so, the plan was I think always to remove a vehicle before sending them north.

The 508's were specifically ordered for the Wirral line, honestly I don't know either way, it was the early days for the Merseyrail network (opening 1978, 508's delivered 1979). They may have intended them to form single four carriage units and then early operational experience said they should go instead for 1x3 and 2x3 formations. Its hard to imagine that cash strapped BR intentionally had dozens of carriages built which it only intended to use for two years. In those early years wasn't there a greater expectation of further extensions being built in the short term (outer loop and extension to Wigan) which could explain how they ended up with excess stock despite only building 3/5ths of the original orders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 508's were specifically ordered for the Wirral line, honestly I don't know either way, it was the early days for the Merseyrail network (opening 1978, 508's delivered 1979). They may have intended them to form single four carriage units and then early operational experience said they should go instead for 1x3 and 2x3 formations. Its hard to imagine that cash strapped BR intentionally had dozens of carriages built which it only intended to use for two years.

I have a feeling inserting them into 455s was always the intention.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 455/7 were ordered as 4 car units then reduced to 3 car during construction. Which suggests a budget saving fudge, was always the plan to recycle the equipment from the withdrawn classes and then further decided to poach some of the Mersey rail coaches as well. BR must have been really cash strapped at the time.

 

[Polarbear]

The original plan was for a fleet of 3 car 507's to firstly replace the 502's, then the 503's. Although the 502's were a bit crusty at the end, many of the 503's dated from 1956 & were to be replaced last of all.

However, the funding became an issue & the decision was taken to build a fourth car for some of the units & use them on the south western division out of Waterloo. This meant some rather old 4-subs could be withdrawn.

This was only ever intended as a temporary measure & the units eventually ended up where they should have been. It was never the plan to run any 4 car units on merseyside as far as I recall.

 

[physics34]

Both classes *seem* to decelerate under power.

yeh agree. it feels like theyve always got the brakes on!

 

[Bletchleyite]

yeh agree. it feels like theyve always got the brakes on!

Hee hee, so it does

What I meant was that they sound like it is the traction motors doing the deceleration on both classes, i.e. rheostatic braking.
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I must admit, though, that Merseyrail might actually work better, given that 6 cars is often way too long but 3 too short, if they had a fleet of 4-car units running singly all day, but instead upped the frequency base at peak times from the current 15 minute base to a 10 minute base. Though I suppose the downside there would be that the clockface timetable wouldn't be as nice - at present you have for example 00, 15, 30, 45 past each hour during the day, with 00 and 30 in the early morning and evening, so if you turn up at 00 and 30 at any time during the service day you will have a train to catch. Very slick in itself.

 

[TheNewNo2]

508s used to be fairly common in the Southern region, and even in 2009 there were a few working on the Watford DC Line for London Overground.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Rail_Class_508s_by_operator