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Grimsby train worker sacked, TPE South staff plan strike.

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GrimsbyPacer

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http://m.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/RMT...train-worker/story-26537953-detail/story.html

Here's the link.
--- Weblink post above --- --- Quoted news post below ---
UNIONS are planning strike action in support of a Grimsby train worker, who they say has been unfairly dismissed after an incident when he was abused and spat at by a gang of youths who were train 'surfing' at the town's station. The union bosses have already announced dates this month and next for strikes and industrial action against what they claim to be 'harsh' treatment of the unnamed worker, who was on a Transpennine Express train pulling out of Grimsby [Town] station when the incident happened.

In a statement released this morning the Rail Union RMT said their member was on a train departing the station when a gang of youths were acting in an anti-social manner.The statement describes how one of the youths tried to surf the train when the RMT member spotted this and stopped the train before he had given the driver the right signal to depart – which is two buzzers.He shouted and gesticulated to the youth to move away from the train and then started the departure process again, claims the statement.

However after he had done so, the union statement claims the youth once again tried to surf the train by holding on to the door frame and standing on the small step board.The statement adds: "The train started to move off down the platform at 7mph with the youth clinging on for about 15 metres then jumping back off and the train continuing."RMT's member saw the youth, and in the seconds it took the incident to happen, he judged that it was safer to allow the youth to jump back off at slow speed, rather than carry out the approved procedure of pressing the red emergency stop button, which would have made an immediate emergency full brake application, possibly throwing the youth off balance."As the rear of the train passed the access gate at which the youths had gathered, the youth who had been clinging to the train then directed foul and abusive language at the RMT member and spat at him, but luckily missed.

Our member then reported the incident to control."The union statement adds: "Despite the extenuating circumstances behind this case, and despite our member being fully open and honest about what happened, the company moved to dismiss, triggering a ballot which delivered an overwhelming vote for action."The action will take place every Sunday in June, between 12.01am and 11.59pm and will involve all Transpennine Express conductor workers located at Cleethorpes and Sheffield.

I'll like to add that the Cleethorpes to Doncaster Sunday service is a bus more likely than a train this year., or it seams to be. So this strike won't be too bad.
 
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Crossforth

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All I will say is, having read the TPE report into the incident, I do NOT support this strike. That article is heavily flawed!
 

Tomnick

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All I will say is, having read the TPE report into the incident, I do NOT support this strike. That article is heavily flawed!
...and the TPE article definitely isn't flawed? In any dispute, the truth will inevitably fall somewhere between the version of events stated by each side, and I'm sure that this one is no different.
 

DarloRich

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It also assumes the correct internal procedures were followed leading up to someone being dismissed..............
 

RM-Taylor

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The Grimsby telegraph article states strike action for every Sunday but the dates listed are for every Saturday on the website beginning this Saturday, the 23rd.

Further industrial action will take place as follows:

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 23rd May 2015

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 30th May 2015

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 6th June 2015

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 13th June 2015

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 20th June 201

00.01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 27th June 2015
 

Islineclear3_1

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At face value in this case, it is a shame that procedure has to take precedence over common sense. Might have been a very different story had the TPE worker initiated the emergency stop procedure, caught the youth off balance and/or pulled him under the train.

There must be more to this than meets the eye
 

Crossforth

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...and the TPE article definitely isn't flawed? In any dispute, the truth will inevitably fall somewhere between the version of events stated by each side, and I'm sure that this one is no different.

Considering the TPE article states the events that happened in accordance with the CCTV footage and the OTMR data, I'd say it's fairly accurate.
 

Tetchytyke

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There must be more to this than meets the eye

Probably not. The guard allowed the train to keep moving when he could see that someone was clinging to it. He can ask Christopher McGee about that if he wants, he should be getting out of prison around about now.

It comes down to whether that should be a sackable offence or not. I can see the guard's point of view if he thought a sudden stop would have been more dangerous, but then I can also see TPE's point of view given their recent RAIB telling-off. It probably is a case of being damned either way, which is unfair, so I can see why the RMT members are worried: it could be them next time. Especially as if he'd used an intermediate door to dispatch rather than the cab door with the droplight he'd have had no chance to see them...
 
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LowLevel

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It's one of those kind of incidents I dread really as you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. TPE aren't interested in providing platform staff though so if they're willing to operate a station like Grimsby in that manner that's their problem.
 

158801

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It is considered dangerous to lean out of the window of a moving train. If I did this and was injured then my employer would blame me.

So, when I dispatch I train I make sure that it's safe and then look out of the window (as I am required to do) but I don't lean out of the window as the train departs.

If, after the train starts moving, something happens (like surfing) then I can not be held responsible for something I don't see !
 

ComUtoR

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If I took anything out of the James Street incident (and many others) it is that you absolutely have to follow procedure. If the guard had hit the emergency plunger as required and the idiot fell to his death then he would have been exonerated.

I am finding it difficult to subscribe to the theory of damned if you do and damned if you don't. We are hammered with the need to follow set policy, rules and procedures. There have been just as many incidents where a Driver has been exonerated because they had followed the right instructions.

As always there is no doubt more to the story than what has been posted. It is hard out there guys and gals.

Work Safe

Com.
 

Domh245

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I am finding it difficult to subscribe to the theory of damned if you do and damned if you don't. We are hammered with the need to follow set policy, rules and procedures. There have been just as many incidents where a Driver has been exonerated because they had followed the right instructions.

Damned if you do: If you press the emergency stop and the youth goes under the train, whilst TPE might say "you followed procedure, we wash our hands of it" the gaurd would have to live knowing that they were effectively responsible for killing the youth, as well as potentially having a large amount of press attention. It's always quite odd how we hear these youths who have died doing something stupid or illegal described in the press as "little angels", "absolutely innocent", "full of potential" etc. The public wouldn't care that the official procedure is to emergency stop the train and get them off that way, they would react in a typically knee-jerky way.

Damned if you don't: Don't follow procedure, let youth get off of their own accord, TPE say - "you didn't follow procedure, bye" and you're out of a job.
 

ANorthernGuard

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If you don't follow Procedures nowadays you are in for the high jump and sent packing. Everyone knows this. Its a shame a colleague has lost his job but procedures HAVE to come first and sadly common sense second.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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"Train Surfing?!" - that's a thing? I mean, how dumb do you have to be?

Not being knowledgeable as to the famous "railway by-laws" that seem to cover a vast number of situations on and around railway stations, which particular railway by-laws come into force when such stupidity as "train surfing" so occurs, so can someone blessed with the full knowledge of railway by-laws explain the matter on this thread, please.

Is this display of stupidity some thing that is of long-standing or just a recent phenomenon at the railway station at Grimsby and are the police aware of this activity that occurs there?
 
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Flamingo

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Goes to prove that as Guards we have to have "Zero Tolerance", and stick to our guns, be it with Platform Staff, Control, BTP or Delay Attribution.

We can get pressured by all of these to do things we feel can uncomfortable with and are ultimately going to be our responsibility when it all goes wrong.

A group of youths on the platform attempting to do something stupid? Refuse to move the train until the platform is clear - if this means waiting twenty or thirty minutes for police to turn up, so be it! After the delay minutes build up, and complaints roll in, then it might be seen as a problem.

I've known a colleague wait this long on a platform with a late train as there was an incapable drunk on the platform staggering around and it took that long for police to turn up. Nothing happened to him.

Personally, on late trains and unmanned platforms, I don't lock the doors until the platform is empty. I don't care how long it takes (I make a point of NOT looking at a clock until I'm totally ready to move). Supporting my family takes priority over everything in my book.
 
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Bodiddly

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Am I right in saying that Scotrail guards are not allowed to open/close doors from the back cab on class 170's? I believe they have to use an intermediary door control. This then means that they do not have the outside view to the very rear of the train thus any idiot trying to train surf would not be seen by the guard until he/she re-entered the back cab. What then, would they apply an emergency brake or cab to cab the driver and ask him/her to slow the train to a stop?
If this is a breach of safety protocol then I would expect the guard to be given a please explain maybe followed by a number 1 or a severe reprimand but to be sacked seems a bit excessive. Again, is there a little more to this story than what's came out?
 

R4_GRN

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Is this a case of a committee of twelve managers taking a month to decide if the guard got it wrong making a split second decision to protect the life of the idiot surfing the train?


Rules assume that the public are responsible adults not juveniles with a disregard for their and fellow passengers safety.

Feel sorry for the guard, he has lost his job!
 

GrimsbyPacer

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.....

Is this display of stupidity some thing that is of long-standing or just a recent phenomenon at the railway station at Grimsby and are the police aware of this activity that occurs there?

I've never seen nor heard of this happening before.
I bet it's fuelled by alcohol. I hope this doesn't become a trend.
If I saw someone doing it I'd push them off the train onto the platform.
 

TDK

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It's one of those kind of incidents I dread really as you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. TPE aren't interested in providing platform staff though so if they're willing to operate a station like Grimsby in that manner that's their problem.

Only damned if you don't, if he had stopped the train and the youth had got injured or killed he would still have his job.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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http://m.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Tra...ecision-sack/story-26541832-detail/story.html

The Grimsby Telegraph have added more.

--- Weblink post above --- --- Quote post below ---
RAIL bosses have defended their decision to sack a Grimsby rail worker who failed to stop a train when he spotted a “vulnerable member of the public” clinging to the outside.

As reported at www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk unions are planning strike action in support of the Cleethorpes-based conductor, who they believe has been unfairly dismissed.

The Rail Union RMT said the man – who has not been named – had been working on a train pulling out of Grimsby station, where a gang of youths were acting in an “anti-social manner”.

The union spokesman said one of the youths had tried to “surf” the train – grabbing on to the outside – but that he had been spotted by the conductor, who stopped the train before he had given the driver the signal to depart.After shouting and gesticulating to the youth to move away, the departure procedure was restarted.However the youth made a second attempt to “surf” – holding on to the door frame and standing on the small step board.

The RMT statement said: “The train started to move off down the platform at 7mph with the youth clinging on for about 15 metres then jumping back off and the train continuing.“RMT’s member saw the youth, and in the seconds it took the incident to happen, he judged that it was safer to allow the youth to jump back off at slow speed, rather than carry out the approved procedure of pressing the red emergency stop button, which would have made an immediate emergency full brake application, possibly throwing the youth off balance.“As the rear of the train passed the access gate at which the youths had gathered, the youth who had been clinging to the train then directed foul and abusive language at the RMT member and spat at him, but luckily missed.

Our member then reported the incident to control.”RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said: “Our sacked member has maintained an unblemished safety and disciplinary record during his ten years of employment with First Transpennine Express.“This dispute is about recognising the particular circumstances of this case and ensuring that the duty of care to staff facing abuse and dangerous behaviour on the railways is properly recognised.

RMT remains available for talks.”The worker has also been backed by Grimsby Telegraph readers commenting on the story online.enrobsoc said: “The man’s actions could well have prevented that young idiot sustaining serious injuries or even losing his life.“To dismiss him for using initiative in a life threatening situation is beyond contempt. Had that lad have been killed there would have been an outcry.“Yobs are becoming an increasing problem in Cleethorpes and to surf a train is the ultimate act of stupidity.

That particular imbecile should be grateful that this man used initiative and that he was unharmed.”However, Nick Donovan, managing director of First TransPennine Express, described the decision to strike as “clearly disappointing, if not deeply concerning”He said: “The conductor decided not to stop the train whilst he saw a vulnerable member of the public hanging on to the outside of the vehicle.“The conductor’s actions were in clear and direct contravention to his training, and also in breach of the Health and Safety at Work Act.“As a consequence, he was dismissed following a full investigation and appropriate disciplinary process.”As a result of the move, all Transpennine Express conductors located at Sheffield and Cleethorpes will strike on every Sunday in June, between 12.01am and 11.59pmFurther industrial action will take place between 12.01am and 11.59pm on Saturday, May 23; Saturday, May 30; Saturday, June 6; Saturday June 13; Saturday, June 20 and Saturday, June 27.

However, Mr Donovan said services would not be affected as a result.
 
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A-driver

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Only damned if you don't, if he had stopped the train and the youth had got injured or killed he would still have his job.


Sadly true. He used his judgement and (possibly and only possibly) saved him from injury or death and is now paying for it.

Like all dispatch style issues, his best course of action would be to stop the train and refuse to allow it to move until the youths were off the platform, if that involved a 45min delay waiting for police to arrive then so be it.
 

Chrism20

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A-driver

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I've never seen nor heard of this happening before.

I bet it's fuelled by alcohol. I hope this doesn't become a trend.

If I saw someone doing it I'd push them off the train onto the platform.


Train surfing is very common in some areas.

If you see someone doing it please don't ever push them off the train onto the platform. It's the most stupid thing you could do in such a situation. You may think it will be heroic but not only are you placing yourself in danger of being dragged under the train yourself if they fight back but if you touch them and they fall onto the platform then roll under the train and die you will be in court for manslaughter, if not murder and it will most probably all be on CCTV - if you see it don't ever try and help but instead try to alert staff or use a help point emergancy button etc.
 

bb21

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Only damned if you don't, if he had stopped the train and the youth had got injured or killed he would still have his job.

I wonder if it would be that easy.

Had the emergency brakes been applied and the idiot lost his life because he lost his grip and fell onto the track awkwardly, could it be deemed negligent on the part of the guard because he could have reasonably foreseen that following this protocol blindly could have resulted in harm in the particular set of circumstances, thereby being prosecuted by the CPS?

Train surfing is very common in some areas.

If you see someone doing it please don't ever push them off the train onto the platform. It's the most stupid thing you could do in such a situation. You may think it will be heroic but not only are you placing yourself in danger of being dragged under the train yourself if they fight back but if you touch them and they fall onto the platform then roll under the train and die you will be in court for manslaughter, if not murder and it will most probably all be on CCTV - if you see it don't ever try and help but instead try to alert staff or use a help point emergancy button etc.

I can only echo this advice.

It would be the most dangerous thing to do.
 

HilversumNS

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Are all youths now to be called 'vulnerable members of the public' ?

Considering what he did, I'd say 'yob' was more appropriate.
 
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