Haulage On The S & C In The 1980's

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Sometime in the summer of 1984 a couple of school friends and I took a journey on the S & C. Haulage was a DMU and I'm pretty certain that its final destination was either York or Hull but as my note books were thrown away many years a go I can't confirm this.

However, what really interests me is to find out when haulage reverted back from DMU's to loco hauled stock. During the summer of 1986 I returned to the S & C to take advantage of the newly introduced stopping service and by this time the train was loco hauled. I'm assuming here that the DMU's were introduced after the direct Nottingham to Glasgow services via the S & C finished.

Can anyone shed any light on when the DMU's were ditched and why? I'd also be interested to know whether class 31's had a monopoly on the stopping services or whether class 47's also made an appearance.

Any information would be gratefully received!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

31s were used at first on the five or six car "half rakes" but later on 47s, still on the "half rakes" were used up until the modern DMUs took over after the closure proposals were thrown out.

In the summer at least it was fairly common to get a 47/0.

The "Generator" series of early 47/4s would often turn up on this line.

 

[RichmondCommu]

31s were used at first on the five or six car "half rakes" but later on 47s, still on the "half rakes" were used up until the modern DMUs took over after the closure proposals were thrown out.

In the summer at least it was fairly common to get a 47/0.

The "Generator" series of early 47/4s would often turn up on this line.

Many thanks for this Peter. Do you know when the locos took over from the DMU's?

You might be interested to know that having alighted at Dent such was the state of the platform that wooden foot boards had to be used to help passengers disembark from the train. We then took advantage of a beautiful summers day to walk over the Coal Road to Garsdale to await the train back to Leeds and then over to Manchester.

The other thing worth mentioning was that at the time Garsdale signal box was switched out. We were gutted as we were rather planning on knocking on the signal box door and asking if we could have a look round!

Memories!

Thanks again Peter

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'll have to look back through my photos archive to get the dates for when I had 31s and when I had 47s - might take a while as I have over 20,000 photos so even though they are in chronological order.............

 

[D6975]

I was up that way in late 1989 and the S&C was solid 47s by then.
I've got a photo in my collection of a 31/4 taken at Carlisle during the Winter 1986/7 timetable. That was a flying visit though, only saw the one service.

 

[43167]

I think there was as much chance of getting a 31 as there was a 47 back in the 80's. Last time I did it before 156's took over, I had a 31 up, for a 47 back.

 

[sprinterguy]

I didn't think, though apologies if I am wrong, that it was as clear cut as going straight from DMU to loco-hauled on the S&C. The principal passenger services over the S&C, after the St Pancras to Carlisle express had been withdrawn in 1977, were the twice daily Nottingham to Glasgow trains, which were re-routed via the WCML in May 1982 and had always been loco hauled (latterly by class 45s). These trains were replaced by a twice daily Leeds to Carlisle service that initially utilised class 31s and 2 five carriage "half sets" of mark 1s, though there's photographic evidence that at least some of the services had gone over to class 47 haulage as early as the autumn of 1983. Certainly, there were class 47 hauled trains by May 1984, when one of the trains was extended back to Hull, so it seems peculiar that it was this service that was being worked by a DMU.

Local services (Twice daily Carlisle to Skipton and daily Garsdale to Skipton and Appleby to Carlisle), which I presume used DMUs, were withdrawn in May 1970. "Dalesrail" services commenced operating on weekends in May 1975, with two trains on a Saturday and one on a Sunday running between Leeds and Appleby, subsequently operating through to Carlisle from the following year. These used DMUs, and operated until 1986 when they were replaced by the officially timetabled "Dalesman" local service in July 1986, which certainly continued to use a DMU at least at first.

Much of the information in this post gleaned from "The Line That Refused to Die", by Stan Abbott and Alan Whitehouse.

 

[Bunting14]

Class 25s on some trains as indicated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7b_xzgUmAs

 

[Ash Bridge]

Class 25s on some trains as indicated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7b_xzgUmAs

Slightly out of the scope of the original post, but in February 1990 traveled from Carlisle to Leeds on a service train behind class 25 D7672 Tamworth Castle with 47422 tucked in behind to provide ETS ( and perhaps a little assistance) for the 9/10 coaches on what was a cold wet and extremely windy day.

 

[12CSVT]

Class 25s on some trains as indicated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7b_xzgUmAs

I had a class 25 on a lengthy passenger train over the S&C in summer 1978 after a class 40 failed near Shipley.

 

[181]

If my memory is correct, the Carlisle-Leeds train on which I travelled in early summer 1982 (it could have been 1983, but I don't think so) was hauled by a class 40.

 

[Pigeon]

These trains were replaced by a twice daily Leeds to Carlisle service that initially utilised class 31s and 2 five carriage "half sets" of mark 1s, though there's photographic evidence that at least some of the services had gone over to class 47 haulage as early as the autumn of 1983. Certainly, there were class 47 hauled trains by May 1984, when one of the trains was extended back to Hull, so it seems peculiar that it was this service that was being worked by a DMU.

Those Leeds-Carlisle services had Peaks on them when I was up there in the early 80s. 1983 I think. I am very sure they didn't have 31s because I loathe 31s so I would have remembered There were 31s on the Leeds-Lancaster services but not over the S&C itself - that would have been no later than 1985.

A year or two later (84 or 85, but no later) the morning Carlisle-Leeds and afternoon Leeds-Carlisle was a regular working for D200 (after it had been painted green). I apparently also photographed 40135 but although the slot in the photo album is so labelled the actual photo is missing, no idea why.

Local services (Twice daily Carlisle to Skipton and daily Garsdale to Skipton and Appleby to Carlisle), which I presume used DMUs, were withdrawn in May 1970. "Dalesrail" services commenced operating on weekends in May 1975, with two trains on a Saturday and one on a Sunday running between Leeds and Appleby, subsequently operating through to Carlisle from the following year. These used DMUs, and operated until 1986 when they were replaced by the officially timetabled "Dalesman" local service in July 1986, which certainly continued to use a DMU at least at first.

There was a "standard BR" DMU service - ie. not Dalesrail, normal BR tickets including rovers were valid - before 1986. I rode on it and filmed out the front. It used to grind up the 1:100 at about 30mph. This would have been in the summer of 1985 I think. It definitely was no later than that.

None of my photos are dated; I am having to work out dates from where they are in my collection in relation to other photos that I do know the dates of, and also from remembering other details of the trips (I went to stay up there at least 3 times track bashing) which help define the dates. I get "definitely no later than" figures from this.

 

[Springs Branch]

One fine summer evening in 1981, I was standing outside Garsdale Head Youth Hostel (now closed but was high up on the fell across the valley and overlooked the S&C between Garsdale & Ais Gill). I was leaning on a 5-bar gate, a pint mug of tea in hand, thinking life doesn't get much better than this, when along came a Class 47 & train of Mk1s motoring purposefully up the gradient to Ais Gill in the summer twilight.

Maybe doesn't add much to this thread, but an enduring memory for me of the spectacular S&C in nice weather. And one of the few occasions I felt thrilled to see a Class 47-hauled train.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This may be a good time to throw into the mix the four consecutive weeks of the pilot locomotive promotion, aimed at enthusiasts, when all S&C trains on saturdays for four weeks had a rare freight locomotive piloting the booked regular locomotive and no special tickets were required...

 

[RichmondCommu]

One fine summer evening in 1981, I was standing outside Garsdale Head Youth Hostel (now closed but was high up on the fell across the valley and overlooked the S&C between Garsdale & Ais Gill). I was leaning on a 5-bar gate, a pint mug of tea in hand, thinking life doesn't get much better than this, when along came a Class 47 & train of Mk1s motoring purposefully up the gradient to Ais Gill in the summer twilight.

Maybe doesn't add much to this thread, but an enduring memory for me of the spectacular S&C in nice weather. And one of the few occasions I felt thrilled to see a Class 47-hauled train.

On the contrary this adds a lot to this thread so thanks for sharing! Talking of YHA's there was once a fine YHA in Dentdale at Cowgill and very close to Arten Gill viaduct. Sadly the Hostel (Dee House) was closed some years a go and is a now privately owned hostel but very pricey which is a real shame as Dentdale is beautiful but now out of bounds for those on a budget.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This may be a good time to throw into the mix the four consecutive weeks of the pilot locomotive promotion, aimed at enthusiasts, when all S&C trains on saturdays for four weeks had a rare freight locomotive piloting the booked regular locomotive and no special tickets were required...

Many thanks for this Peter. Was this all organised in BR days?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, it was still BR days there. It was off season as well, March / April sort of time if I remember rightly, so it was a very clever way of filling up a lot of spare capacity on the S&C trains as well as gaining a lot of connecting revenue; I made four consecutive Saturday day trips from Epsom to Carlisle to get the haulages they were putting on!

 

[Helvellyn]

Yes, it was still BR days there. It was off season as well, March / April sort of time if I remember rightly, so it was a very clever way of filling up a lot of spare capacity on the S&C trains as well as gaining a lot of connecting revenue; I made four consecutive Saturday day trips from Epsom to Carlisle to get the haulages they were putting on!

I remember a pair of Class 20's one weekend, and a Railfreight Coal livered Class 56 another. Can't remember what the other two weekends were. They used two half-sets, and had the 47 in the formation too for train heat.

The West Coast S&C diversions were also popular, with a variety of ETH Class 47's (and the odd non-ETH fitted example) turning up to haul the West Coast services between Carlisle and Preston over the S&C. The middle roads at Citadel were full of 86's, 87's and 47's.

Slightly off topic, there were also a couple of weekends (late 1980s I think) when the WCML was shut between Lancaster and Preston, so Class 31/4's and short LHCS formations were operating a Lancaster-Carlisle shuttle. Also remember Kingmmor Class 108 DMUs operating Carlisle-Penrith shuttles when Penrith-Oxenholme was shut.

Finally, no idea of the date but I recall being a private railtour (i.e. tickets weren't advertised for sale) in the late 1980's running with an 8-car Class 108 formation Penrith-Carlisle-Hellifield-Barrow-Carlisle-Penrith. I think it was organised by a community organisation in Penrith of which a then BR Area Manager was part of!

 

[Darren R]

Prior to the closure in 1970 of all the intermediate stations except Appleby and Settle, S&C local services had been DMUs, mostly Class 101. All the long-distance and fast trains had been in the hands of Peaks since the mid 1960s. With the withdrawal of the local services, only the longer distance services remained, and these continued to be more-or-less exclusively Class 45s throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s. However, a series of derailments at Glasgow Central in the early 1980s resulted in Peaks being banned. The Glasgow services were truncated to terminate at Carlisle in early 1983, although trains continued to run to destinations beyond Leeds.

Peaks continued hauling through-trains to Nottingham and Hull, but Class 40 were also used in the early 1980s, along with Classes 31 and 47. My last sighting of a Peak on the S&C that I can find was in March 1984 on a Leeds to Carlisle train. After the Peaks were withdrawn, haulage seems to have been either Class 40 or 47, until the former were also withdrawn in 1985.

The mid-to-late 80s saw haulage mostly in the hands of 31s and the ubiquitous 47s. (How I hated it when I saw a 47 on the front in the platform at Leeds! ) Only the odd train in the middle of the day was a DMU at this time; virtually everything was loco-hauled. (What my better-half calls a "proper train"! )

After having spent a happy hour or two wallowing in nostalgia going through old timetables and spotters' books for the period, rather annoyingly I can't find the summer 1984 timetable. However, the S&C timetable barely changed from one year to the next (apart from a few minor timing differences.) Virtually every service over the S&C was first- and second class, which would more or less rule out DMUs by that time. I know the Eastern region still had DMUs with first class compartments in 1984, but first class was mostly declassified on DMUs by then, certainly in the Yorkshire area.

The summer 1985 timetable has a 1300 Carlisle to York advertised as second class only. A big [2] in the column heading generally meant a DMU!

 

[MTN]

Remember in 1984 I think, had 2 x 31s on Carlisle to Hull service, one failed and was then pushed by 47 as far as Skipton where another 31 was attached at the front. Much delayed on arrival into Leeds.

The following year D200 was in use.

 

[yorksrob]

Would have been nice to have sampled the route in those days. Sadly, the long drag was a little out of my orbit in the 1980's.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Would have been nice to have sampled the route in those days. Sadly, the long drag was a little out of my orbit in the 1980's.

On the flip side Rob the S & C is very much alive and well which is significant in itself given BR's determination to close it in the 1980's.

I personally think that Northern would make a lot of money by running two loco hauled services a day (out and back) but I don't think this would ever be possible due to a shortage of rolling stock.

 

[fowler9]

This may be a good time to throw into the mix the four consecutive weeks of the pilot locomotive promotion, aimed at enthusiasts, when all S&C trains on saturdays for four weeks had a rare freight locomotive piloting the booked regular locomotive and no special tickets were required...

I remember those. Unless I am much mistaken I had a pair of 26's on way and a 56 the other one day. This is all logged in the attic somewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

On the flip side Rob the S & C is very much alive and well which is significant in itself given BR's determination to close it in the 1980's.

I personally think that Northern would make a lot of money by running two loco hauled services a day (out and back) but I don't think this would ever be possible due to a shortage of rolling stock.

Yes, that's definately a plus point - and the fact that you can sample a few different places on the same day with the present timetable.

As for loco hauled, it's been done previously, so never say never !

 

[D6975]

Part extract from my haulage log:

10/03/90 20905 20906 47422 CARLISLE SETTLE
10/03/90 37104 47456 SETTLE CARLISLE
10/03/90 37104 47456 CARLISLE LEEDS

 

[55013]

Yes, it was still BR days there. It was off season as well, March / April sort of time if I remember rightly, so it was a very clever way of filling up a lot of spare capacity on the S&C trains as well as gaining a lot of connecting revenue; I made four consecutive Saturday day trips from Epsom to Carlisle to get the haulages they were putting on!

The S & C specials happened three times and jolly good fun they were too.

The first time it was four Saturdays in November 1989, then in February/March 1990 and this was followed up by four days between Christmas and New Year in 1991.
Some days saw two sets worked by rare locos each day, at other times there was a new engine put on at Carlisle for the run back to Leeds.
Being local I just had to cover them all

The locos involved:

04/11/89 - 56104 & 47503
11/11/89 - 56030 & 47475
18/11/89 - 56099 & 47477
25/11/89 - 20061, 20093 & 47444

24/02/90 - 25912 & 47422
24/02/90 - 26007 & 47443
03/03/90 - 58036 & 47456
10/03/90 - 37104 & 47456
10/03/90 - 20906, 20905 & 47422
17/03/90 - 56075 & 47453

27/12/91 - 37071, 37083 & 47479
27/12/91 - 37049, 37095 & 47479
28/12/91 - 60022 & 31418*
28/12/91 - 60021 & 31418*
30/12/91 - 56134 & 31418
30/12/91 - 56117 & 31418
31/12/91 - 56109 & 47475
31/12/91 - 26040, 26011 & 47475

* Due to some sort of incident at Neville Hill 60022 left a couple of hours late!
As a result this service was terminated at Appleby, 60021 had come light from Carlisle to power the return journey.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It has to be the february / March 1990 ones I can remember.

Blimey.... quarter of a century ago!

 

[55013]

Blimey.... quarter of a century ago!

I know!
What happened?
One day I was a young carefree bloke out on the bash and then suddenly I'm a much older, less than carefree, bloke out on the bash.

Anyway, here's a shot of 20905 & 20906 waiting at Leeds to head back North:

20905 & 20906_1990.03.10_Leeds by Phil Wood, on Flickr