Electric & Diesel D-H/Multiple working

[alexl92]

Just interested to know whether there are any/many examples of electric and diesel locos working together in mutliple or double-heading trains?
Is it even possible for them to work in multiple?

 

[D365]

The first that comes to mind is how the Class 210 specification was for multiple working with Class 317. Obviously these are MUs rather than locomotives and the 210 didn't advance beyond a prototype, but perhaps a similar principle if any at all..

 

[bangor-toad]

Perhaps not likely on the mainline at the moment but 33's and 73's could, and did work together.

Here's the first link from a quick Google search:

There are many, many weird and wonderful old SR workings that used combinations of EMU's, a 73 and a 33.

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[RobShipway]

There was also many situations where a class 33 hauled an EMU from Bournemouth to Weymouth, before that section of the line got electrified. I believe class 73's also hauled ENU's from Bournemouth to Weymouth.

I also believe in the past that there was class 33's that hauled EMU trains down to Swanage before the route was closed back in the 1960's?

 

[Skutter]

Just interested to know whether there are any/many examples of electric and diesel locos working together in mutliple or double-heading trains?
Is it even possible for them to work in multiple?

Classes 91 and 43 worked in multiple when the 91s were new, using the TDM multiple system which was retro-fitted to some of the class 43 cars.

I'm not sure if these would have been compatible with other TDM locos, I guess they should be but it was never tried?

 

[455driver]

There was also many situations where a class 33 hauled an EMU from Bournemouth to Weymouth, before that section of the line got electrified. I believe class 73's also hauled ENU's from Bournemouth to Weymouth.

They were not EMUs as they were the 4TC sets, the T standing for trailer, no motor coaches and effectively sets of 4 coaches permanently coupled together.
All the power was provided by the 33 or the REP unit, a REP had 3200hp on tap and were 'rather quick' when running on their own!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

When the hst power cars were initially converted for surrogate DVT duties they were initially used as generator cars for the HST stock. This is because a HST ETH uses a 3 phase a/c power supply whereas lhcs and mk4 use a single phase DC supply. This is what the 91 provides ETH wise, it was found that the valentas suffered from faults due to prolonged idling. They were therefore adapted to provide traction power under control of the 91, giving effevtively a hybrid diesel/electric traction and over 8000hp on tap. Performance was a little sprightly!

 

[D365]

They were therefore adapted to provide traction power under control of the 91, giving effevtively a hybrid diesel/electric traction and over 8000hp on tap. Performance was a little sprightly!

Oh what would I would give to see one of these formations, once again...

 

[30907]

The most recent thread to discuss the mixed EDL/DL+TC+EMU workings is here

1. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1782022

but it isn't the only one.

There were regular mixed traction workings throughout the TC era, and the summer 1967 timetable had some very odd improvisations owing to stock shortages. The one I remember was an up Swanage formed from Bournemouth as 2HAP-73-8TC (mentioned in the thread).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh what would I would give to see one of these formations, once again...

The ancestor of the Bi-mode IEP in some ways!

 

[D365]

The ancestor of the Bi-mode IEP in some ways!

A Class 43 power car was certainly not able to haul any regular train on its own! Was it merely a forum fantasy, or was this electric+coaches+diesel hybrid formation genuinely considered for IEP 'in the early days'?

 

[physics34]

The first that comes to mind is how the Class 210 specification was for multiple working with Class 317. Obviously these are MUs rather than locomotives and the 210 didn't advance beyond a prototype, but perhaps a similar principle if any at all..

Also on the Multiple unit theme DEMU 205101 was made to work in multiple with Mk1 SR EMUs. Im not sure if it ever actually did though, although something in my memory says that it worked with a 4VEP once..... ???!!!

 

[HSTEd]

Oh what would I would give to see one of these formations, once again...

You may do when the 91s and HSTs are both retired.
I imagine it was and is an enthusiast favourite.

 

[theageofthetra]

Up until the late 60's the Mid Kent line used to occasionally flood near Clock House station requiring the EMU's to be hauled by a 33.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When the Met used to change over to steam at Rickmansworth I wonder if steam ever hauled one of the electric locos if it had suffered a failure?

 

[aitchbomb2014]

In the late 70s possibly early 80s there was a turn for a 73/33 combo between Didcot and Kent with a short take of MGR type coal wagons.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Classes 91 and 43 worked in multiple when the 91s were new, using the TDM multiple system which was retro-fitted to some of the class 43 cars.

I'm not sure if these would have been compatible with other TDM locos, I guess they should be but it was never tried?

The class 89 was also on the ECML passenger trains at the time, and did haul some of the HST sets around, but I don't know if it ever used TDM for push-pull workings.

 

[dubscottie]

Classes 91 and 43 worked in multiple when the 91s were new, using the TDM multiple system which was retro-fitted to some of the class 43 cars.

I'm not sure if these would have been compatible with other TDM locos, I guess they should be but it was never tried?

They were used on the west coast with class 86's when first converted but with the engine shut down.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alea47426/9619016351/

 

[Jamesb1974]

I can't think of any circumstances where this would be booked to run. Diesel locos and electric ones have different acceleration characteristics for starters. You'll definitely see double heading and even what appears to be double heading but isn't.

Freightliner regularly have two 86's on their container trains on the WCML and DBS have also started using pairs of 90's in favour of a single 92. DRS regularly double head with diesels and you might see a diesel with a DIT (dead in tow/train) 'leccy behind it or vice versa.

 

[DownSouth]

Bulk coal freight is run in South Africa using Electric-Diesel mixed formations, complete with distributed power to make it really complicated - Locotrol II controls the electrics, the diesels in each group of locos are slaved to the electric using standard multiple unit working equipment.

This is done basically because the money is not there to go over to a full electric solution, and because it makes it fairly simple to take the train through a coal loader without attaching other locos to what generally operates as a semi-fixed formation.

... and you might see a diesel with a DIT (dead in tow/train) 'leccy behind it or vice versa.

A good method of shifting a loco from one place to another without the additional costs of sending a light engine under its own power - staffing, paying for a train path etc.

Different operating conditions will make the economics of this decision work differently - for example a vertically integrated operator will not need to worry about paying for a train path.