St Johns to London Terminals season - Valid to Victoria?

[KnapweedMartha]

Hi,

I hold a season from St Johns to London Terminals. I'm not sure whether it's possible to use this to Victoria and intermediate stations. It's far from the shortest route to a London terminal, but possible entirely on NR services.

There are four possible routes that may be valid:

- Via New Cross, Surrey Quays and Peckham Rye
- Via Lewisham
- Via Waterloo East (or Waterloo LUL during LBG works), Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

The former two, if valid, could presumably also be alternative routes to Blackfriars and City Thameslink.

Is using any of these routes to Victoria any of these routes definitely or arguably valid?

 

[hangus78]

When I choose the seasons to London Terminals on the Southern site it's showing...

The following London stations are available for travel with the chosen ticket:
London Blackfriars(BFR)
City Thameslink(CTK)
London Cannon Street(CST)
London Charing Cross(CHX)
London Bridge(LBG)
London Waterloo East(WAE)
London Victoria(VIC)
Vauxhall(VXH)
London Waterloo(WAT)

By playing around with Via's and avoids I've manged to get itineraries to Victoria changing at Lewisham by stating London Victoria as the destination rather than London Terminals and avoiding Cannon Street.

 

[maniacmartin]

There are two main ways a route can be deemed valid: Either by the maps in the Routeing Guide, or by virtue of being no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

St Johns has Routeing Points: Hither Green, Lewisham and New Cross.
Of these, Lewisham and New Cross pass the fares check for a journey to London Terminals, so are appropriate for this journey.

Considering New Cross
New Cross to London Group (page 1283) has map BR which doesn't include Victoria

Considering Lewisham:
Lewisham to London Group (page 1104) has maps BR VL
Map VL shows a route from Lewisham to Victoria via Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill
Therefore St Johns -> Lewisham -> Nunhead -> Denmark Hill -> Peckham Rye -> Victoria is a permitted route

Shortest route rule
There is ambiguity in the rules as to whether you can pick any station group member when calculating these routes. It is my opinion (and others will no doubt offer a different view), that you cannot. The shortest route between St John's to London Terminals is 3.75 miles (direct into London Bridge). All routes into London Victoria exceed 6.75 miles so the shortest route rule doesn't yield anything.

I don't think your proposed routes via Surrey Quays or Waterloo/Clapham Junction are valid

 

[MikeWh]

Shortest route rule
There is ambiguity in the rules as to whether you can pick any station group member when calculating these routes. It is my opinion (and others will no doubt offer a different view), that you cannot. The shortest route between St John's to London Terminals is 3.75 miles (direct into London Bridge). All routes into London Victoria exceed 6.75 miles so the shortest route rule doesn't yield anything.

I will offer a counter view to this point. Hither Green is a routeing point. Only map SV applies for Hither Green to London and this does not appear to include any routes to Victoria. By your reckoning using London Bridge as the nearest London Terminal it is 5.5 miles away. In fact this distance in the NRT is via Lewisham and I can't find a distance avoiding Lewisham, so it's likely that the shortest route is under 5.5 miles. The shortest route to Victoria is 8.75 miles. Therefore, taking your opinion, it is not valid to go to Victoria from Hither Green (and probably also Lee to Albany Park as well) unless it is a through train.

 

[RJ]

Hi,

I hold a season from St Johns to London Terminals. I'm not sure whether it's possible to use this to Victoria and intermediate stations. It's far from the shortest route to a London terminal, but possible entirely on NR services.

There are four possible routes that may be valid:

- Via New Cross, Surrey Quays and Peckham Rye
- Via Lewisham
- Via Waterloo East (or Waterloo LUL during LBG works), Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

The former two, if valid, could presumably also be alternative routes to Blackfriars and City Thameslink.

Is using any of these routes to Victoria any of these routes definitely or arguably valid?

All point to point tickets involving travel within Zones 1 and 2 are a very similar price, in many cases the same. You could get your season ticket changed to St Johns to Clapham Junction (route London Not Underground) free of charge which would allow you to take all the routes you have listed.

 

[maniacmartin]

I will offer a counter view to this point. Hither Green is a routeing point. Only map SV applies for Hither Green to London and this does not appear to include any routes to Victoria. By your reckoning using London Bridge as the nearest London Terminal it is 5.5 miles away. In fact this distance in the NRT is via Lewisham and I can't find a distance avoiding Lewisham, so it's likely that the shortest route is under 5.5 miles. The shortest route to Victoria is 8.75 miles. Therefore, taking your opinion, it is not valid to go to Victoria from Hither Green (and probably also Lee to Albany Park as well) unless it is a through train.

Indeed, and I think the route being omitted from the map is a mistake. As the booking engines use a tolerance of 5 miles, not 3, they will allow it though.

However, if one could choose any London Terminal, what's to stop someone choosing something crazy like Paddington?

 

[Busaholic]

When I choose the seasons to London Terminals on the Southern site it's showing...

The following London stations are available for travel with the chosen ticket:
London Blackfriars(BFR)
City Thameslink(CTK)
London Cannon Street(CST)
London Charing Cross(CHX)
London Bridge(LBG)
London Waterloo East(WAE)
London Victoria(VIC)
Vauxhall(VXH)
London Waterloo(WAT)

By playing around with Via's and avoids I've manged to get itineraries to Victoria changing at Lewisham by stating London Victoria as the destination rather than London Terminals and avoiding Cannon Street.

Wonder why Vauxhall is included but not Elephant?

Possibly answering my own question, is it because Vauxhall would be reached by changing stations at Waterloo?

 

[RJ]

Elephant isn't part of the London Terminals group, though it is part of the London Thameslink group.

 

[FenMan]

Indeed, and I think the route being omitted from the map is a mistake. As the booking engines use a tolerance of 5 miles, not 3, they will allow it though.

I know of an obvious, reasonable (and the quickest by far) route between A and B that isn't permitted by any booking engine. It's 3 miles 35 chains longer then the shortest route.* I've never had any issues when going that way though.

*I appreciate that mileages used by booking engines can be different to info available on the web.

 

[30907]

Indeed, and I think the route being omitted from the map is a mistake. As the booking engines use a tolerance of 5 miles, not 3, they will allow it though.

However, if one could choose any London Terminal, what's to stop someone choosing something crazy like Paddington?

One can't choose ANY London terminal, but surely in the case of ex SR routes the ticket is valid to all of the listed stations (as per hangus78's quote) by the appropriate route in each case. The rule is about 50 years old!
The only exception would be if the ticket specified a particular London terminal (there used to be a special rate for S Bermondsey to London Bridge).

The fact that Victoria is further away than London Bridge is IMO a red herring.

I'm with maniacmartin on this one.

Two supplementaries, but not informed by current opinion:
the route to Vauxhall must be via Waterloo, so in practice travel via Clapham Junction should be OK though I wouldn't rely on being able to exit there.
And the same comment applies to Surrey Quays assuming you can change platforms without using a gate

 

[maniacmartin]

One can't choose ANY London terminal, but surely in the case of ex SR routes the ticket is valid to all of the listed stations (as per hangus78's quote) by the appropriate route in each case. The rule is about 50 years old!

British Rail rules do not apply nowadays! However, if someone thinks a reasonable route that was valid under British Rail has been lost, then one can invoke the disputed route procedure, in the hope that it will be ressurected.

I'm with maniacmartin on this one.

Your comments seem to suggest otherwise!

the route to Vauxhall must be via Waterloo, so in practice travel via Clapham Junction should be OK though I wouldn't rely on being able to exit there.

I don't follow the deduction here. How does validity via Waterloo to Vauxhall imply that travelling via Clapham Junction is OK?

And the same comment applies to Surrey Quays assuming you can change platforms without using a gate

You can change platforms without using a gate, however whether there is a gate or not has no bearing on validity

 

[30907]

British Rail rules do not apply nowadays! However, if someone thinks a reasonable route that was valid under British Rail has been lost, then one can invoke the disputed route procedure, in the hope that it will be ressurected.


Your comments seem to suggest otherwise!


I don't follow the deduction here. How does validity via Waterloo to Vauxhall imply that travelling via Clapham Junction is OK?

1. OK, but AFAIK all 3 ex SR TOCs work to the same list.

2. Was referring to your first post not the second (which TBH I hadn't noticed was from you, sorry for confusion).

3. OK in practice even if not in theory, because the barriers at Wloo ought to accept the ticket on that basis, and those at Vic C because validity there must still include via Batt Pk.

I wouldn't push the point, because via Lewisham is the obvious route anyway.

 

[kieron]

However, if one could choose any London Terminal, what's to stop someone choosing something crazy like Paddington?

ATOC has a list of valid London terminals for each station. Victoria is on the list, but Paddington isn't. I don't know of any rule to say that list has anything to do with it, but NRE tends to consider it. This doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread, as the shortest route from St. Johns to Victoria is via Lewisham on map VL anyway.

What's more, every route KnapweedMartha mentioned is given as being valid on a single ticket apart from the route via Waterloo East and Clapham Junction.

While I don't much like the idea of a ticket being valid because NRE says it is (as NRE's rules aren't published anywhere, it's impossible to find out what the rules are, or find out what rules have been changed or when), that appears to be the way it is.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Would a Lewisham to Clapham Junction route London not Underground season give all of the options being discussed? It's a bit simpler as Lewisham is a routeing point. I can't remember if we've "decided" whether going via London on this route allows you to switch between termini but even if not then St Johns - Lewisham - Victoria - Clapham would be an outward leg and Clapham - Waterloo part of a return leg that would continue Waterloo East - Lewisham. All the same price, as someone up thread has mentioned. I know that's not actually what the OP wants to do but it has cropped up in the discussion.

 

[RJ]

As is often the case, the discussion has gone off on a tangent, debating the intricacies of the routeing guide and booking engines - probably not very helpful to the OP.

 

[kieron]

Would a Lewisham to Clapham Junction route London not Underground season give all of the options being discussed?

I don't know off-hand. One of the problems I had was that I couldn't see anything in the routeing guide to explain why (for instance) the route to London via Surrey Quays was valid, but NRE showed it as being allowed anyway. It may show the route to somewhere else, such as Clapham Junction, as being valid that way, but I haven't checked.

I don't think the "not underground" thing matters for season tickets, as you can break your journey whenever you feel like, and all of the stations which have Underground transfers defined between them have non-Underground ones defined during the night.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Shortest route rule
There is ambiguity in the rules as to whether you can pick any station group member when calculating these routes. It is my opinion (and others will no doubt offer a different view), that you cannot. The shortest route between St John's to London Terminals is 3.75 miles (direct into London Bridge). All routes into London Victoria exceed 6.75 miles so the shortest route rule doesn't yield anything.

I agree that in many ways it would be elegant and would resolve a lot of "anomalies" if it worked like this, but the Routeing Guide doesn't know anything about fares groups. As a result it turns out to be very unelegant trying to involve the concept of fares groups in the routeing guide logic.