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SNCF Intercités routes to be shaken up

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eisenach

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There's an exclusive in Le Parisien saying that many of the SNCF's Intercité routes are under threat. It was also the headline story on the France 2 TV news this lunchtime.

http://www.leparisien.fr/economie/le-rapport-qui-menace-les-trains-intercites-26-05-2015-4803787.php

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100 000 voyageurs empruntent quotidiennement les Intercités. Un rapport pointe les défaillances de ces liaisons et recommande d’en supprimer certaines. (REA/Gilles Rolle.)
Il y a les TVG, souvent présentés comme les enfants chéris de la SNCF, un réseau faisant office de vaisseau amiral en quelque sorte. Vive la vitesse ! Il y a aussi les TER, ces trains express régionaux chers aux régions.
.. Et il y a les trains Intercités qui, comme leur nom l'indique, ont pour vocation de relier des villes -- pour certaines de taille moyenne -- entre elles. Un rapport remis ce mardi au gouvernement et que « le Parisien » - « Aujourd'hui en France » s'est procuré en exclusivité préconise une sérieuse remise à plat de ce réseau. Décrié et vieillissant, il est pourtant très utile aux 100 000 voyageurs qui l'empruntent quotidiennement. Commandé par le ministère des Transports et rédigé par le député (PS) Philippe Duron, ce document estime néanmoins que plusieurs de ces liaisons ferroviaires ne sont plus adaptées aux conditions de transport et aux modes de vie d'aujourd'hui.
Parfois concurrencées par le TER, voire dans d'autres cas par les TGV, ou bien encore par la route, ces lignes se trouvent de fait « surdimensionnées ». En clair, elles font doublon. D'où une fréquentation faible n'arrangeant pas le déficit d'exploitation de ce réseau
Un réseau en mauvais état et déficitaire
« Une qualité de l'offre continuellement dégradée... des temps de parcours sensiblement augmentés, une régularité qui a régressé... » Le rapport de Philippe Duron dresse un constat sévère de l'état du réseau Intercités. Pour expliquer l'allongement des temps de parcours et la baisse de la régularité des trains, le député a une explication : la dégradation de l'infrastructure, « insuffisamment entretenue ». Et c'est un comble, « les travaux de régénération mis en oeuvre depuis 2012 dont l'ampleur perturbe fortement les circulations ». Autre problème, et non des moindres, le vieillissement du matériel roulant. Des trains, quoi ! Ils n'ont pas été renouvelés « pendant plus de trente ans », souligne l'élu, reconnaissant qu'il a tout de même été rénové et modernisé. Des opérations qui ont permis de « prolonger sa durée de vie de quelques années et d'améliorer le confort offert aux voyageurs, rappelle le rapporteur. Elles n'apportent cependant pas le niveau de qualité de service requis ». (...) Le rapport rappelle que la commande de 34 rames de type Régiolis devrait améliorer les conditions de transport des voyageurs.Une commande d'un montant de 510 M€ (incluant la modernisation des ateliers de maintenance), financée par l'Etat. A noter qu'outre une redevance annuelle d'environ 450 M€, celui-ci verse chaque année 330 M€ pour renouveler son matériel roulant et combler le déficit d'exploitation. Un déficit estimé entre 300 à 400 M€ !
C'est donc un remède de cheval que souhaite administrer Philippe Duron. A commencer par la mort programmée des trains de nuit dont « le modèle économique, précise le rapporteur, n'est plus viable ». Ensuite, certaines lignes à l'image de Hirson-Metz semblent condamnées. Quant à d'autres tronçons peu fréquentés, ils sont eux aussi sur la sellette. Comme par exemple, les trajets entre Nantes et Quimper.
Réduire le nombre de trains, leur fréquence, ou bien encore les remplacer par des autocars comme pour la ligne Bordeaux-Lyon, mais aussi préparer « l'ouverture à la concurrence » des Intercités qui « doit être engagée dès maintenant ». Le rapport fait feu de tout bois (voir infographie ci-contre). D'où la colère et les réactions violentes des élus locaux. « Nous redoutons des choix budgétaires de court terme et le risque programmé des lignes TET (NDLR : trains d'équilibre du territoire, c'est-à-dire les Intercités) », s'emporte Caroline Cayeux, sénateur-maire (UMP) de Beauvais et présidente de l'association des Villes de France. Quant à l'association des Régions de France, elle « s'inquiète vivement des réductions d'offres des trains Intercités ».
Mais le rapport n'est pas seulement à charge pour le réseau. A côté de la potion amère, il plaide pour un « renforcement de l'offre Intercités sur les lignes à fort potentiel ». Comme sur les Paris-Caen ou encore Paris-Limoges-Toulouse.
A la SNCF, peu bavarde sur le sujet « avant la publication du rapport », on avouait tout de même que l'entreprise n'avait pas vocation à continuer à supporter un déficit pour des trains où il n'y a personne. Autant dire que ce rapport est pain bénit pour la société ferroviaire.
Les lignes en sursis
A l'exception des quatre dessertes de nuit (Paris-Hendaye, Nord-Est - Méditerranée, Paris-Côte Vermeille et Paris-Savoie) et de certaines liaisons (Bordeaux-Lyon, Saint-Quentin - Cambray, Hirson-Metz...), le rapport Duron ne préconise pas de véritables suppressions de lignes sur la totalité des trajets. Ses recommandations portent plutôt sur des tronçons « surdimensionnés et peu fréquentés ». Comme par exemple ceux placés aux deux extrémités nord et sud de la ligne Quimper-Toulouse (entre Nantes et Quimper d'une part, et entre Bordeaux et Toulouse d'autre part). Idem pour la section Marseille-Nice sur la ligne Bordeaux-Nice. Il propose aussi des réductions de trains (Rouen-Le Havre, Amiens-Boulogne...) ou de remplacer les liaisons ferroviaires par des autobus (Bordeaux-Lyon, Toulouse-Hendaye...) ou bien encore de transférer le service de transport aux régions, comme pour le Paris-Montargis !

Basically, it's saying that the trains are old, slow, expensive for the customer and run at a huge deficit, and that they often double services provided either by TER or TGV. Sleepers are also in the firing line. The report submitted to the government recommends replacing some services with modern (road) coaches, cutting the number of stops on other routes so that the overall journey time is shorter, reducuing the frequency of trains, shortening the route run, or transferring the service to the TER network (which means that the Regions would have to pick up the tab).

It also suggests, though, that lines with strong potential should be developed further.

The last paragraph gives some of the routes involved.

The Macron law has for the first time opened French long distance travel to coaches, as in Germany. It seems as though the SNCF's rôle might well end up being running the TGV network, and supplying local trains under contract to the Regions, with not much left in between. The accident at Bretingy-sur-Orne is probably hovering in the background, too. TGV has meant that maintenance has suffered elsewhere.
 
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ainsworth74

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What, I wonder, makes our network much more viable even with very strong coach competition?

Higher frequency, decent journey times (especially compared to road), similar population but in smaller area, more hubs (London, Birmingham, Manchester/Leeds, Scottish Central Belt, South Wales) to drive demand between them, focus on whole network rather than flagship TGV network.
 

CC 72100

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Looks like these are the ones which will be got rid of all together:

A l'exception des quatre dessertes de nuit (Paris-Hendaye, Nord-Est - Méditerranée, Paris-Côte Vermeille et Paris-Savoie) et de certaines liaisons (Bordeaux-Lyon, Saint-Quentin - Cambray, Hirson-Metz...)

With those that follow being modified - either cut back, or made into TERs.

The regions taking over is an interesting one - with the new map, I'm wondering whether we will see some of the TER 'companies' merge with neighbouring ones just like they do on the map. Surely they could a) generate efficiency savings, and b) have such a distance that certain Intercités trains are now practically totally in that same region, meaning becoming a TER is a natural choice.

Of course, all this is coming at 'make your mind up time'. The Corail stock, as comfortable as they are, are getting on a bit and so you can imagine SNCF stripping Intercités back to the core before replacement stock is ordered.

I'd have said the Intercités to Normandie are probably the safest of the lot, with their being no TGV line (at yet).

The link in the original post has a good map - "les lignes en sursis" = lines at risk

I expect we will see more detailed articles on this website: http://transportrail.canalblog.com/
 
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Bald Rick

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What, I wonder, makes our network much more viable even with very strong coach competition?

Believe it or not:

Better frequency
Quicker journey times
Better punctuality (yes really)
Better customer service
Lower costs (I'm not joking!)
Better fare structure
Denser population (as in more of us, not less intelligent).
 

notadriver

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I don't know if someone could comment further but judging from video 125 cab rides, intermediate stations are often closed in France or have very low amounts of people using them. Compare that with the situation in the UK where the large majority of places have very well used stopping services.

As regards coach competition I feel (and again I stand to be corrected) that national express which have the biggest UK network have had to add extra stops to ensure the profitability of their routes. This increases journey times and the coach is no match in frequency or journey time on most intercity routes.
 

Hophead

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What, I wonder, makes our network much more viable even with very strong coach competition?

Many economies on InterCity routes here were made ages ago - just look at the number of intermediate stations on the main lines once they're clear of the major metropolitan areas (the WCML is surely unique in offering local services throughout much of its length).
 

glbotu

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To give an example of one of the larger Intercite routes, Bordeaux - Lyon, both cities with an Urban population of around 1.1 million.

This is about a 600 km (370 mile) drive at around 5 1/2 hours journey time. A similar journey would be Exeter (110,000 pop.) - Newcastle-upon-Tyne (900,000 pop)***. The similarities pretty much end there:

The biggest population centre on that journey by rail is Clermont-Ferrand, at around 470,000.

In contrast, to get from Exeter - Newcastle, you go through Bristol (620,000 pop), Cheltenham (115,000 pop), Birmingham (2.4 million), Derby (240,000), Chesterfield (100,000), Sheffield (640,000), Leeds (1.8 million), York (200,000) and Darlington (100,000).

It can therefore be seen that the main driver for any kind of rail service between Lyon and Bordeaux will be end to end journeys. There is 1 tpd to do the whole journey, which lasts 6h 15 mins, which is comparable to getting the TGV via Paris (at 6hrs 30 mins).

The main driver on Cross Country routes is smaller express journeys. (Newcastle - Leeds, Exeter - Bristol, Bristol - Birmingham*), which warrant 1tph. Very few people will make the 6h 7 minute journey all the way, but lots of people will contribute across the length, which is what makes that service viable. In contrast, the main Intercite service from Bordeaux - Lyon has to be viable pretty much on end-to-end journeys, with limited traffic from intermediate stops (which are there largely for more "local" journeys of sub - 3 hrs, Clermont-Ferrand to Lyon, for example, that's run by TER).

In terms of other journeys along that route, they are mostly covered by the TER Network. Getting Bordeaux - Limoges (a branch on the route to a city of about 110,000 people), has an infrequent service of around 3hrs long, again, a notably inter-city distance, but serving nowhere particularly important (it would be akin to running a frequent service non-stop between Exeter and Manchester, there just isn't enough potential traffic for the service to be viable more than once-per-day).

If the line was "upgraded" to TGV standards, then it may be considered differently. It could certainly be seen as viable to have maybe a 2 hourly service between the two if the journey time could be sub 3 hours (it would also be handy for general cross-country rail traffic in France).

But that's the crux of it, a slower cross country journey isn't viable in a country who's rail spending has entirely focused on radial High-Speed routes from one city.

France is one of the few countries in the world with a population distribution similar to the UK, with one dominant city, and a small number of moderate cities. However due to the huge increase in size, the density is much lower, with difficulties in getting between the other population centres.

***It's difficult to find similar sized journeys in the UK, France is big.
** Urban Area populations used.
* I'm only looking at lines served by the hourly service, obviously, it also contributes to 4 tph Sheffield - Derby, Derby - Birmingham.
 

jopsuk

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France's population distribution, as well as explaining why the Intercities struggle, also explains why the TGV system is so well suited.
 

glbotu

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France's population distribution, as well as explaining why the Intercities struggle, also explains why the TGV system is so well suited.

Absolutely. I reckon France should be investing in more Cross Country TGV routes. Bordeaux - Lyon would be a great start, but doesn't even seem on the cards, having been abandoned (link in French). The planned Bordeaux - Toulouse will help get traffic between Bordeaux and Marseille, although Toulouse - Marseille is still a painful 4 hours.

While non-London centric traffic is kind of bad here, it's no-where near as bad as non-Paris centric traffic is in France.
 

dutchflyer

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Reports/articles with the very same idea have already been published many times the last 2 years. And a thorough review of the TGV services is also planned/discussed, incluidng cutting off all those branches on non-TGV local lines-sometimes even diesel-hauled!.
@CC71100: TER is NOT a company at all-its simply the name/label for local trains organised/subsidised by the regions. Similar to what Germany calls ''regional verkehr''. In fact there is now also a kind of savings plan to merge various regions-with the usual resistance.
Most of the more viable routes run to/fro Paris-and these thus always cross into the around Paris =Transilien region (Ile de Paris in official French). Its simply a fact that demand for travel in the whole (be it train, bus or car) is much, much lower in provincial France as it is in the UK-and even lower in Espana.
Sleepers as such have already been withdrawn several years ago-overnight trains are now recline seat and couchette only (with 4 or 6 beds).
One of the main obstacles in French are the outmoded working practices-kept on by staff ever ready to go on strike and gross overstaffing. As the UK also kind of had in the 80ies of last century.
 

CC 72100

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@CC71100: TER is NOT a company at all-its simply the name/label for local trains organised/subsidised by the regions. Similar to what Germany calls ''regional verkehr''. In fact there is now also a kind of savings plan to merge various regions-with the usual resistance.
.

I'm aware of that, hence the use of inverted commas. To be honest, I couldn't think of a better way of paraphrasing it. My point still stands - are TER whatever-you-want-to-call-them going to go by the old map or the new one which sees the merging of regions, and therefore TER 'organisations' which could generate cost savings, especially as some Intercités service that previously ran through 3 old regions, may now be wholly in one of Hollande's new megaregions.
 

duesselmartin

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How does the TGV compare to the German ICE?
Do all TGV routes have real high speed sections?
Many ICE trains run on conventional lines and therefore simply replaced IC services with similar timing. Also Germany's new concept sees the IC (Twindexx etc) as a better Regional Express.
I am sure with Bus competion more German IC routes will also be slashed.
So far, I rather change trains on my Düsseldorf-Brussels/London journeys than taking the direct IC Bus, even though speed is not a priority for me.
 

notadriver

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As far as I'm aware all TGV routes have high speed sections and the speed attained is at least 300 kph. In addition TGVs can run faster on conventional lines in some cases. I'd be very interested to know how the ICE services compare. I think bus competition will force IC to cut prices. I can't see people switching from train to coach and I'm guessing those that do use coaches are on a tight budget or have lots of time to spare.
 

glbotu

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How does the TGV compare to the German ICE?
It's a pretty similar experience from a journey perspective, but frequencies on the ICE are much better. TGV tend to run with a few trains a day (around 4), which sort of adds up on the "trunk" routes, even something like Paris - Lyon is only approximately hourly.
Do all TGV routes have real high speed sections?
Pretty much. A couple of infrequent ones don't and mostly operate to provide direct services between major cities. Marseille - Bordeaux is a good example.
Many ICE trains run on conventional lines and therefore simply replaced IC services with similar timing. Also Germany's new concept sees the IC (Twindexx etc) as a better Regional Express.

I am sure with Bus competion more German IC routes will also be slashed.
So far, I rather change trains on my Düsseldorf-Brussels/London journeys than taking the direct IC Bus, even though speed is not a priority for me.
I wouldn't be so quick to jump to bus competition. There's much less of a resistance to changing trains in Germany and the trains are still notably quicker.
 

30907

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It's a pretty similar experience from a journey perspective, but frequencies on the ICE are much better. TGV tend to run with a few trains a day (around 4), which sort of adds up on the "trunk" routes, even something like Paris - Lyon is only approximately hourly.

Pretty much. A couple of infrequent ones don't and mostly operate to provide direct services between major cities. Marseille - Bordeaux is a good example.

The core TGV routes from Paris are all pretty much hourly on the HS sections, though the lower speed extensions and some of the cross-country routes are less frequent.
Even Marseille-Bordeaux has a bit of HSL at the beginning.

ICEs are concentrated on routes using the HSLs part way (except the ICE-T routes through Erfurt where it was the tilt that was important), but the proportion of HSL mileage to ICE mileage is smaller, and there are some very long distances over routes that are 200kph or less.
 

notadriver

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Does anyone know if coaches in Germany are allowed to go fast on autobahns to better compete with trains ?
 

notadriver

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Ya never know with the Germans :) after all it's quite common to be overtaken by a 'foreign' coach.
 

notadriver

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Wow that's pretty cool - the only advert I've seen advertising high cruising speeds. Of course in the UK the maximum cruising speed they could advertise is 70 mph - is that considered high speed ?

Of course the only way you can legally exceed 70 mph without flying is on a train and most long distance services don't advertise their top speed ..
 

leytongabriel

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A few points from a local resident pickig up the arguments above, sorry these are fragmented

The continuing developement of a very extensive motorway system in France has to be part of the equation I'd guess.

The original article wasn't quite right - a lot of IC routes have 'Corail' refitted stock. IMHO the old intercity coaches have about the most comfortable seats you can find in second class nowadays.

Ticket pricing can also be a disincentive to regional destinations. The 'Prems' equivalent of advance tickets are only available to and from a limited list of major stations. Meaning it may be much cheaper to take a Prems to a major town even if it is further away than get a standard ticket to an intermediate station a or perhaps a station on a secondary main line.

The policy of regional subsidy of TER trains may now be threatened given the change in French politics. Currently standard TER fares tend to be lower than standard SNCF but they don't have cheap offers unless you have a regional railcard. A very alarmist map of rail closures said to be under discussion was published by a rail union last year, but seems to have disappeared for the moment.

And finally , though it is sad to say this, station staffing levels are quite extraordinary to British eyes.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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All being well I shall be going on these services from Paris to the Dordogne next week. I will stock up on food at Austerlitz before I get on board as on a similar service last year these was no catering at all and it's a long journey. Some trains go from Paris to the Spanish Border.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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No catering at all ? No water ?? You could die on that train (!)

On two similar longish services I went on last year, there was no buffer or restaurant car and no sign of a trolley or vending machine. Catering can vary alot on European trains, even main line/long distance services which why I buy food and drink at the stations before I get on board just in case. (It's often cheaper doing that too.)

Another thing thing I noticed on these trains last year was the odd seating sometimes. In 2nd class, it was an open carriage, either 2 x 2 airline style or 4 round a table either side of the aisle as we get here, but in the centre of some coaches, it changes to 1 seat opposite and other on one side of the aisle and then 3 seats opposite the other on the opposite side of the aisle. just seemed a bit strange.
 

Ianigsy

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Another thing thing I noticed on these trains last year was the odd seating sometimes. In 2nd class, it was an open carriage, either 2 x 2 airline style or 4 round a table either side of the aisle as we get here, but in the centre of some coaches, it changes to 1 seat opposite and other on one side of the aisle and then 3 seats opposite the other on the opposite side of the aisle. just seemed a bit strange.

Ah, that explains something! Have just been booking Lyon-Chambery-Milan for July and wondered why the seats I kept being offered were "aisle", "middle" or "window"- of course going through the Alps I wanted a window seat but it took some fiddling to get one! Perhaps SNCF did some research and found that 3+1 was actually a better match for the size of parties using the service- it allows two parents and a child to sit together facing the same way, or a larger family to occupy all six.

Must do a nice long French regional journey one day while they're still there- didn't realise until the other night that there's still a TER service going Paris Bercy-Dijon-Lyon.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ah, that explains something! Have just been booking Lyon-Chambery-Milan for July and wondered why the seats I kept being offered were "aisle", "middle" or "window"- of course going through the Alps I wanted a window seat but it took some fiddling to get one! Perhaps SNCF did some research and found that 3+1 was actually a better match for the size of parties using the service- it allows two parents and a child to sit together facing the same way, or a larger family to occupy all six.

The groups of 6 seem very popular on LM's 3+2 seated 350/2s when these appear on Crewe and Brum routes - family groups and the likes tend to take them. A group of 6 with 2+2 seat width may well be even more popular, and the 1 side (particularly if there are individual airline seats) would be very much favoured by solo travellers.

Might even be worth a UK TOC trying it.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I have just returned from my recent trip to France, all went well on Eurostar and the IC trains to the Dordogne, which were better than the ones I went on last year. Similar funny seating as mentioned above, but I was lucky in both directions as I had the single solo seats with table, with good window and facing direction of travel in bother directions. Very clean and smart looking and very fast running too.
 
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