AnsaldoBreda V250 (Fyra)

[MCR247]

Does anyone know what happened/is happening to these trains? Scrapped or are AnsaldoBreda hoping to sell them on?!
And also what is currently running on HSL-Zuid? Just Thalys? What is the long term plan?

Thanks, I realise I'm asking a lot of questions

 

[HilversumNS]

Looks like an update is needed on the manufacturers website, it reads like the trains are actually running on HSL Zuid:

http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/treno-alta-velocita-v250

High Speed Trains V250 connect the cities of Amsterdam and Bruxelles. These trains are completely in conformity with the European Technical Specification of Interoperability: infact, they can adapt to the different voltage of the railway networks.

AnsaldoBreda has worked together with Pininfarina, with an accurate design, studied to express an idea of speed, brightness, convenience and comfort.

The V250 train combines the benefits of high-speed rail (travel times and service levels) with those of metropolitan travel (frequency and accessibility), providing competitive mobility solutions.

 

[WatcherZero]

They were returned to Ansaldobreda, NS got 125m Euro back plus up to 22m more if they are resold by Ansaldo (they orginally paid 208m). NMBS/SNCB received 2.5m euro in compensation, they hadn't taken delivery of any and its unclear how much deposit they may have made. Both agreements included both sides ending legal proceedings and not seeking any further compensation. They were returned between September and December last year, no talk of potential buyers other than early suggestions of Turkey. Its been suggested the true economic cost of the whole fiasco to the Netherlands is 11bn Euros.

Meanwhile the parliamentary inquiry into the debacle in the Netherlands set up two years ago has started hearings last week, lot of the people involved refusing to appear to give evidence. However the chairman of the travellers association Rover (who seems to be a dutch Wolmar) alleged that the main issue was the Dutch national railway company not understanding how business is done in Belgium. He alleges the Belgians knew that the trains were flawed as they had been told by the Danes who had received a similar product, but had instead negotiated a discount and financial protection while underestimating just how flawed they were. The Dutch oblivious to the concerns hadn't similarly protected themselves.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ic-hearings-into-fyra-fiasco.html?channel=523

 

[Groningen]

Indeed the trains have been returned to Italy. There is more to this. The dutch railwaycompany had 2 things to pay for: the license to run trains on the HSL and than the trains itself. By offering too much money (178 million €) for running the trains, there was less money for decent trains. So we got cheap ones, that broke down very soon when they entered service between Amsterdam and Brussel.

 

[stut]

the chairman of the travellers association Rover

Now there's nominative determinism for you...

 

[WatcherZero]

The travel association is called Rover

his name is Arriën Kruyt

 

[Groningen]

The term "Rover" is very different in the UK and the Netherlands. In Dutch it is robber/thief (of money of/and things). In England it seems to be traveler or commuter.

 

[MCR247]

They were returned to Ansaldobreda, NS got 125m Euro back plus up to 22m more if they are resold by Ansaldo (they orginally paid 208m). NMBS/SNCB received 2.5m euro in compensation, they hadn't taken delivery of any and its unclear how much deposit they may have made. Both agreements included both sides ending legal proceedings and not seeking any further compensation. They were returned between September and December last year, no talk of potential buyers other than early suggestions of Turkey. Its been suggested the true economic cost of the whole fiasco to the Netherlands is 11bn Euros.

Meanwhile the parliamentary inquiry into the debacle in the Netherlands set up two years ago has started hearings last week, lot of the people involved refusing to appear to give evidence. However the chairman of the travellers association Rover (who seems to be a dutch Wolmar) alleged that the main issue was the Dutch national railway company not understanding how business is done in Belgium. He alleges the Belgians knew that the trains were flawed as they had been told by the Danes who had received a similar product, but had instead negotiated a discount and financial protection while underestimating just how flawed they were. The Dutch oblivious to the concerns hadn't similarly protected themselves.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ic-hearings-into-fyra-fiasco.html?channel=523

Thanks for this info I must admit I was surprised that AnsaldoBreda were chosen after the IC4 debacle in Denmark (and Libya )

 

[92002]

Thanks for this info I must admit I was surprised that AnsaldoBreda were chosen after the IC4 debacle in Denmark (and Libya )

Last I read they have been sold to FS for use in Italy, but have yet to enter service.

NS and SNCB have yet to get any order placed for High Speed Trains on HSL.

Perhaps some second hand TGVs or a new build modern version. They are still saving up for some and continue to use 160kph coaches and hired in TRAXX. Although NS now own some that have yet to be cleared for use in Belgium.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Last I read they have been sold to FS for use in Italy, but have yet to enter service.

NS and SNCB have yet to get any order placed for High Speed Trains on HSL.

Perhaps some second hand TGVs or a new build modern version. They are still saving up for some and continue to use 160kph coaches and hired in TRAXX. Although NS now own some that have yet to be cleared for use in Belgium.

I'm surprised they haven't just opted for something like the Velaro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps some second hand TGVs or a new build modern version.

While I'm sure it'll go out to tender (with a certain Italian firm probably not included), if I happened to personally have several hundred million knocking about to spend on UIC-gauge high-speed trains I would be highly unlikely to consider anything other than the Siemens Velaro at the moment.

 

[Ianigsy]

At the end of 2013 I bought a couple of satirical annuals in Denmark which had a couple of pieces on the IC4 fiasco- the first cartoon had an IC4 proceeding carefully down the track while a man in overalls swept the leaves out of its way, while another showed the sales department of Ansaldo Breda with all the champagne and scantily-clad ladies while on the factory floor, the workers assembled the trains by candlelight and with nothing more sophisticated than some rather substantial hammers!

 

[90019]

You sure those weren't factual reports that had slipped in by accident?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The V250s are all now being transported back to Italy. The HSL in NL is currently carrying Thalys trains plus a LHCS 'Intercity Direct' service hauled by a small pool of Traxx locomotives, most of which NS has bought, new since the V250 fiasco. They are, I believe, limited to 200kph but this is no great problem given that the HSL line is very underused. Essentially, as others have indicated, NS does not have the resources to order any new fast trains for the line nor is there any particular pressure to. The Benelux trains to Brussels via the classic line are more or less back again so connectivity with BE is restored. The Thalys trains can get very full/expensive because they are so much faster but for most journeys the Benelux service is just fine.

What you have to realise when reading through these posts is that politics in NL can get very viscious, with many MPs having it in for NS management for numerous problems over the years occasionally justified but mostly not. Actually, NS runs one of the best services in Europe IMHO and deserves much more support by from its customers and Ministry that it seems to get!

 

[anme]

My impression is that most people are happy to have the Benelux trains back. The Fyra service was a bit faster but brought a lot of unwelcome aspects - high prices, inflexibility, requirement to book in advance, etc. It also made connectivity from Belgium to some parts of the Netherlands considerably worse. A few more high speed trains might possibly be useful, but in general the balance seems better now.

 

[JaJaWa]

Now Hitachi has bought AnsaldoBreda they might be able to sort the trains out?

 

[WatcherZero]

They were shoddily constructed, while they could restructure the manufacturing process (though will be tough likely with pushback from unions) to improve future ones not sure what they could do about the returned ones.

 

[airinter]

Now Hitachi has bought AnsaldoBreda they might be able to sort the trains out?

The V250 were excluded from the deal and are still owned by Finmeccanica and i doubt that Hitachi would try to reactivate those trains if they want to sell more trains in europe.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm surprised they haven't just opted for something like the Velaro.

There's a bit of a waiting list for them, is there not? The e320s are very late.

 

[Groningen]

The nicest thing about the V250 train was that they were all different. No train was the same.

 

[DownSouth]

The nicest thing about the V250 train was that they were all different. No train was the same.

I have heard a similar allegation regarding the wiring on the LRVs they built for the Los Angeles Gold Line

 

[duesselmartin]

Perhaps some second hand TGVs or a new build modern version. They are still saving up for some and continue to use 160kph coaches and hired in TRAXX. Although NS now own some that have yet to be cleared for use in Belgium.[/QUOTE]

What happened to the SNCB/NMBS Benelux locos. I thought they were in store. Obviously not available to use on that IC service (?)

 

[gordonthemoron]

what voltage does the high speed line use?

 

[MCR247]

I have heard a similar allegation regarding the wiring on the LRVs they built for the Los Angeles Gold Line

And exactly the same thing about the T69?(?) Birmingham trams

 

[Bletchleyite]

And exactly the same thing about the T69?(?) Birmingham trams

And the Manchester ones.

 

[gordonthemoron]

what is it with Italians and spaghetti?

 

[HowardGWR]

what voltage does the high speed line use?

Why not google it as I did. 25kv.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogesnelheidslijn_Schiphol_-_Antwerpen

and press your translate button (if need be)..

 

[MisterT]

The NS are currently in the bidding process for new Intercity trains. The new trains will be used for intercity services on the high speed line and the "normal" intercity services.
The maximum speed for these new intercity trains will be 200 km/h.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I was over there last week, and the Intercity Direct services appeared to be using NS liveried (mostly-yellow, with blue) Traxx locos, with about 6 coaches. The same sort of coaches were on the Benelux service, again about 6 in the rake, including some with driving trailers, although these weren't being used as such.
I think the coaches were marked up for 160kph only, but I could be wrong there.

 

[Blamethrower]

The V250s are all now being transported back to Italy. The HSL in NL is currently carrying Thalys trains plus a LHCS 'Intercity Direct' service hauled by a small pool of Traxx locomotives, most of which NS has bought, new since the V250 fiasco. They are, I believe, limited to 200kph but this is no great problem given that the HSL line is very underused. Essentially, as others have indicated, NS does not have the resources to order any new fast trains for the line nor is there any particular pressure to. The Benelux trains to Brussels via the classic line are more or less back again so connectivity with BE is restored. The Thalys trains can get very full/expensive because they are so much faster but for most journeys the Benelux service is just fine.

What you have to realise when reading through these posts is that politics in NL can get very viscious, with many MPs having it in for NS management for numerous problems over the years occasionally justified but mostly not. Actually, NS runs one of the best services in Europe IMHO and deserves much more support by from its customers and Ministry that it seems to get!

Having worked in the Netherlands, I would say that politics across the board is viscous, especially within large companies.

I agree that NS operate a brilliant service, I guess the vitriol climbs when there is an issue. eg, power outage as it often renders the entire country in gridlock (due to so many Dutch using the railways to commute)

I travelled on the Traxx service as the last v250 was in service, I tried to get a ride on it but it was always running the opposite way to my plans. I actually saw it at Rotterdam Centraal on the opposite tracks.

Shame, it was an unusual train but one whose looks grew on me.

When I lived over there, I ask NS why they had ordered trainsets that were only capable of 250kmh instead of 300kmh - no answer