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Derailment at Charlton 3/6/15

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MikeWh

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Looks like Southeastern are taking another hit today. Nothing running between London Bridge and Slade Green via Woolwich. Anyone know what's happened?
 
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Bald Rick

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Looks like Southeastern are taking another hit today. Nothing running between London Bridge and Slade Green via Woolwich. Anyone know what's happened?

The title says it. Freight derailment at Angerstein Jn.
 

MikeWh

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The title says it. Freight derailment at Angerstein Jn.

Cheers! I just wish the alerts would describe the full scope of the issue. Yes, the Woolwich line is blocked. This also has a major knock on effect on the Sidcup line as the Gravesend trains are formed from Gillingham semi-fasts at Charing Cross and the rounders - are rounders via Woolwich.
 

kentman

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From https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/606064647612071937


CGksGtpWwAEvAoJ.jpg
 

wensley

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Reports that the points flashed O/O/C with the passage of 6V43 and the image above seems to illustrate the end result! No doubt RAIB will get to the bottom of the cause in due course.

It would seem passenger services have resumed now but recovering that little lot will take a while. Main thing is nobody was injured.
 

fv43576

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How it can be derailed at low speed? is the bend too much for long wagons?
 

QueensCurve

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Reports that the points flashed O/O/C with the passage of 6V43 and the image above seems to illustrate the end result! No doubt RAIB will get to the bottom of the cause in due course.

It would seem passenger services have resumed now but recovering that little lot will take a while. Main thing is nobody was injured.

I am a bit confused that nationalrail.co.uk reported that trains could not run via Greenwich. I thought it would have blocked the route via Lewishiam?
 

wensley

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I am a bit confused that nationalrail.co.uk reported that trains could not run via Greenwich. I thought it would have blocked the route via Lewishiam?

What I can sumise (someone who knows the area better may well correct me!) the job was totally stopped and then the lines to the right (which I presume are the route via Greenwich?) were re-opened in due course.
 

user15681

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What I can sumise (someone who knows the area better may well correct me!) the job was totally stopped and then the lines to the right (which I presume are the route via Greenwich?) were re-opened in due course.

That's correct. The lines to the right are via Greenwich and they merge behind the camera at Charlton Jn with the lines to the left which come from Blackheath (Can be seen on Google Maps if you search for 'Victoria Way, Charlton'). The loco and first few wagons were across the junction to begin with, preventing trains from Charlton to Greenwich.

Crude and quick sketch of mine on paint...

Charlton03062015.jpg
 
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david737

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Yes - same train and same location I believe - 9th of May 2014.

It was 2nd April 2014 it happened, the May date is when it appeared on the RAIB website.

The Greenwich line was reopened about 1600ish after the loco and first few wagons were removed, its just the Blackheath jn to Charlton jn that remains closed and probably will be for a day or two.
 

Alistair G.

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I know this is probably a stupid question but it has always baffled me so I have to ask.

How as a driver do u know when a truck had derailed?. I can understand it if your loco comes off or maybe even the front wagon or so, but I've seen pictures before where it's a wagon right near the back of a train, how do u know when that's off the track?. No rear view mirror so do u just depend on the air brakes disconnecting and kicking in?, or does the train pull differently???.
 

John Webb

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It was 2nd April 2014 it happened, the May date is when it appeared on the RAIB website.

The Greenwich line was reopened about 1600ish after the loco and first few wagons were removed, its just the Blackheath jn to Charlton jn that remains closed and probably will be for a day or two.
Thanks for the correction. I usually see it at St Albans City station around 3.20pm on Weds, when I'm working at the signal box - wondered why it hadn't come through today!
 

wensley

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I know this is probably a stupid question but it has always baffled me so I have to ask.

How as a driver do u know when a truck had derailed?. I can understand it if your loco comes off or maybe even the front wagon or so, but I've seen pictures before where it's a wagon right near the back of a train, how do u know when that's off the track?. No rear view mirror so do u just depend on the air brakes disconnecting and kicking in?, or does the train pull differently???.

Could be either or, in most (freight) derailments the RAIB reports indicate the Driver being made aware the issue having lost air and the brakes having come on.
 

GB

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I know this is probably a stupid question but it has always baffled me so I have to ask.

How as a driver do u know when a truck had derailed?. I can understand it if your loco comes off or maybe even the front wagon or so, but I've seen pictures before where it's a wagon right near the back of a train, how do u know when that's off the track?. No rear view mirror so do u just depend on the air brakes disconnecting and kicking in?, or does the train pull differently???.

As said, it can be both depending on the nature of the derailment. Driver maybe able to hear it if circumstances are right or see it if he happens to be *looking back down the train...

*Periodic looking back at the train is a requirement on freight trains to make sure everything is ok.

Its also possible that a train can derail without the driver realising and also derail and rerail without the driver or anyone else noticing.

The freight that derailed at Marks Tey a few years ago managed to travel for about a mile before getting the word to stop as the wagons remained up right and connected.
 

Bald Rick

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As said, it can be both depending on the nature of the derailment. Driver maybe able to hear it if circumstances are right or see it if he happens to be *looking back down the train...

*Periodic looking back at the train is a requirement on freight trains to make sure everything is ok.

Its also possible that a train can derail without the driver realising and also derail and rerail without the driver or anyone else noticing.

The freight that derailed at Marks Tey a few years ago managed to travel for about a mile before getting the word to stop as the wagons remained up right and connected.

The Marks Tey one was stopping distance for that train.

Drivers have a good sense of train movement for a given location/speed/power controller setting. You will know if it is not accelerating /coasting/braking as it should, in much the same way that you will know if your car is suddenly short of power (eg if the turbo goes). So they will usually know that something is wrong even if the brakes don't come on or there is no noise.
 

theageofthetra

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Out of interest do modern freight locos have any rear facing cameras to monitor the train?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Despite the derailment - Southeastern managed a respectable 94% PPM this afternoon. Good work all round.
 

MarkyT

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o/o/c = Out of correspondance

Points have to be 'in correspondence' before any signals routing over them can show a proceed aspect. The detected positions of the switch blades have to 'correspond' with their desired controlled position in the interlocking. On panels and control screens there is a flashing white indication when out of correspondence to draw the signallers attention. This also flashes when points are commanded to move legitimately from one position to the other.

So if the points were in the correct position initially, perhaps something dragging under a wagon caught on a switch blade and moved it out of true causing the following wagons to derail.
 

Antman

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Despite the derailment - Southeastern managed a respectable 94% PPM this afternoon. Good work all round.

Yet the southeastern trains twitter feed for yesterday is full of complaints about late and cancelled trains although a trespass incident in the Dover area and a passenger taken ill at Etchingham obviously didn't help.

The line has now reopened between Charlton and Blackheath.
 
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LAX54

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The Marks Tey one was stopping distance for that train.

Drivers have a good sense of train movement for a given location/speed/power controller setting. You will know if it is not accelerating /coasting/braking as it should, in much the same way that you will know if your car is suddenly short of power (eg if the turbo goes). So they will usually know that something is wrong even if the brakes don't come on or there is no noise.

Pretty sure he was unaware to start with, think it was someone trackside calling in an Emergency.
 

Bald Rick

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Pretty sure he was unaware to start with, think it was someone trackside calling in an Emergency.

To be fair I can't remember, I have tried to erase that 'week from hell' from my memory. It was the same week as the Liverppol St East London Line bridge issue.
 

Chris M

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There was a passenger EMU (last year?) where one of the later cars derailed and rerailed on points leaving Liverpool Street. The driver was unaware until the guard informed them of some rough riding but didn't spot anything amiss when they eximined the train from a platform.
IIRC it was only when the people responsible for maintaining points took a second look (after their first failed to fix the signalling indication?) that it was realised what had happened.
 
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