• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Planning Permission for Rail Services?

Status
Not open for further replies.

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
An article run in "The Oxford Mail" today discusses how the lives of people in North Oxford will be ruined by HS2.

Essentially, many residents are frightened that trains loaded with ballast will thunder through Oxford on their way to the construction site and some poorly built houses will be in danger of collapsing due to the vibrations.

I was intrigued by a quote from the Oxford City Council board member for Planning and Transport - Alex Hollingsworth (Labour)
"Any proposal to use the route for delivering ballast for HS2 would need to go through a separate planning process."

Is it true that local authorities can pick and choose which freight or even passenger services pass through their towns or cities?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,785
Location
West Riding
Is the line currently a passenger only line?

If so, maybe it could be considered a 'change of use' to change it to freight and therefore require planning permission.

(That's just a guess for now, may be able to ask an expert later on and clarify)
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
As far as I know it only applies to the authority where the construction is taking place, the developer has to produce a plan showing how materials will be transported to and from site.
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
2,880
Location
Lancashire
I don't think a local authority has any jurisdiction on change of use of existing railway lines from passenger only to mixed or vice versa, it would be in the railways GDO. As its an operational matter
 

John Webb

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2010
Messages
3,047
Location
St Albans
As the alternative would be dozens of large lorries on the local roads rather than relatively quiet trains, I know which I'd prefer......
 

bluenoxid

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
2,459
I understand that this is connected to the noise and vibration conditions of the Oxford extension. However, generally they don't have much real clout AFAIK
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
As I think there is a virtual quarry at Hinksey, ballast trains presumably "thunder" through Oxford quite often already. As for the new line, I imagine there have been construction trains.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,928
Location
Wennington Crossovers
Network Rail can do what they want within the existing network. New construction requires a Transport and Works Act Order (for lines) and/or a planning application (which also applies for buildings, new car parks, etc).
 
Last edited:

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,104
It can get interesting when you get two local authorities squaring up to each other as well. I live in a small market town right on the border between North and West Yorkshire, where several years ago the local (Leeds City) councillors decided to try to stop the procession of lorries laden with gypsum coming through the town. All was going smoothly, until North Yorkshire stymied the whole thing by pointing out that none of the alternative routes suggested by Leeds were acceptable for heavily-laden lorries.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I was leafleted at Wigan NW station last year about the routeing of nuclear fuel trains on the WCML through the town.
It appeared to be part of a concerted campaign to get rid of the Sellafield traffic across the rail network (not just Wigan).
The leaflets mentioned Wigan a lot but I think they just changed the name for each campaign area.
The map included power stations that have now closed!
The argument was mainly about how close to heavily built-up areas the trains ran (eg West London line, West Midland, North West), and the risk of derailment and puncturing of the containers.
I told them it was safer than them being on the roads, and that it kept the lights on, and they weren't pleased.
I'm pretty sure nobody had a say about how fuel would reach the nuclear power stations from Sellafield when they were built.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
I'm pretty sure nobody had a say about how fuel would reach the nuclear power stations from Sellafield when they were built.
Because back in those days, people had better things to do with their time and there were no websites or social media to parade scaremongering half-truths around dressed up as facts.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
Network Rail can do what they want within the existing network. New construction requires a Transport and Works Act Order (for lines) and/or a planning application (which also applies for buildings, new car parks, etc).

I understand they can do more than that with their specific 'permitted development' rights. Do correct me, but this can encompass short extensions I believe.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,836
Thats the way I understand it, if its within existing railway boundaries then permitted development applies.
 

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
Surely HS2 will be given planning permission by the Government as part of the HS2 bill? I would assume that would cover all the consents they require or else it will be chaos with all manner of people trying to block it.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
Surely HS2 will be given planning permission by the Government as part of the HS2 bill? I would assume that would cover all the consents they require or else it will be chaos with all manner of people trying to block it.

Yes, the Hybrid Bill provides the legal rights for the scheme to be built. I believe the various councils' planning permission departments do become involved at the level of fine detail, e.g. what a tunnel vent/intervention shaft building looks like, but nothing they can do will stop the scheme being built. The exact design of the stations is also done at the planning permission level, as the designs included in the Hybrid Bill are intended as an achievable design which the Environmental Statement can accurately measure the impact of it being built, e.g. number of lorry movements and waste produced.

As an example, here's what Birmingham City Council say Curzon Street station could look like in their plans:
JS32969827.jpg


Compare this to what was actually authorised in the Hybrid Bill:
curzon5.jpg


The two station designs are basically identical from a railway systems perspective and would take a comparable amount of time and money to build, but you can see how Birmingham CC would want to make the design fit in with the other developments around the site. The Hybrid Bill doesn't cover any of the surrounding area not necessary for the HS2 scheme to be built, including any possibility of over-site development at Euston. Indeed, the Hybrid Bill includes the plans to build Euston (Option 8) with a flat concrete deck as a roof rather than an architectural trainshed, leaving Camden Borough Council to actually approve any over-site development plans.
 

Andyjs247

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
707
Location
North Oxfordshire
An article run in "The Oxford Mail" today discusses how the lives of people in North Oxford will be ruined by HS2.

Essentially, many residents are frightened that trains loaded with ballast will thunder through Oxford on their way to the construction site and some poorly built houses will be in danger of collapsing due to the vibrations.

I was intrigued by a quote from the Oxford City Council board member for Planning and Transport - Alex Hollingsworth (Labour)


Is it true that local authorities can pick and choose which freight or even passenger services pass through their towns or cities?

The story relates to the Oxford-Bicester line which is undergoing reconstruction. Perhaps someone should point out to the residents of North Oxford that the line serves an existing stone terminal at Banbury Road. They seem to cope with regular stone trains already; I can't see that that there is any change of use or that HS2 is any concern of Oxford City Council.

Residents are however alarmed that the freight trains will now be up to 775m long and will run at 60mph instead of 30mph and so will cause more vibration. I would suggest that the newly rebuilt line may even lead to a reduction compared to now with deeper ballast, improved drainage etc. Has this been (or will it be) measured I wonder?
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Residents are however alarmed that the freight trains will now be up to 775m long and will run at 60mph instead of 30mph and so will cause more vibration. I would suggest that the newly rebuilt line may even lead to a reduction compared to now with deeper ballast, improved drainage etc. Has this been (or will it be) measured I wonder?

Don't you just love the way we quite happily mix metric and imperial measurements in the same sentence?

Of course if a train is twice as long, but runs twice as fast, it'll take the same length of time to pass!

(Current or recent freight on this route includes traffic to the Bicester army depot.)
 

TheNewNo2

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2015
Messages
1,008
Location
Canary Wharf
I remember reading a story about the new IEP depot being built in Bristol. Residents were saying they'd be kept awake by the noise. The railway people said "it won't be as loud as the night freights that go past". The residents said "what night freights?"
 

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,284
Location
Leeds
I remember reading a story about the new IEP depot being built in Bristol. Residents were saying they'd be kept awake by the noise. The railway people said "it won't be as loud as the night freights that go past". The residents said "what night freights?"
There's something strangely beautiful about that.
 

Andyjs247

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
707
Location
North Oxfordshire
I remember reading a story about the new IEP depot being built in Bristol. Residents were saying they'd be kept awake by the noise. The railway people said "it won't be as loud as the night freights that go past". The residents said "what night freights?"

How very true.

The Wolvercote residents probably haven't noticed that much of the ballast for the reconstruction of the line is now arriving by rail - past their homes in north Oxford (as it should). Further down the line towards Bicester the residents of Islip, Merton, Ambrosden will I am sure have noticed! They will be relieved that this is the case and they are no longer subject to the same convoys of lorries. In Bicester the initial construction for the new chord involved many lorries which were quite noticeable. But once stone began to arrive by rail the number of lorries dropped considerably (I live within 500m of the construction site so can speak from experience!)

It was also a planning requirement for Evergreen 3/EWR Phase 1 that much of the bulk materials arrived by rail and I imagine it will be the same when HS2 gets the go ahead. And presumably it is also a planning requirement for the Banbury Road stone terminal, ie for the stone to arrive by rail! The council is going to look very silly if they now try to say you can't deliver stone by rail either to the stone terminal or ballast for construction of EWR past some houses which happen to be built next to the line.
 

Dhassell

Member
Joined
22 Mar 2015
Messages
1,011
An article run in "The Oxford Mail" today discusses how the lives of people in North Oxford will be ruined by HS2.

Essentially, many residents are frightened that trains loaded with ballast will thunder through Oxford on their way to the construction site and some poorly built houses will be in danger of collapsing due to the vibrations.

I was intrigued by a quote from the Oxford City Council board member for Planning and Transport - Alex Hollingsworth (Labour)


Is it true that local authorities can pick and choose which freight or even passenger services pass through their towns or cities?

Highly doubt Ballast Trains will knock down houses considering Many freight pass there every day!
 

Dolive22

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2009
Messages
463
The sui generis use of a railway covers all railways, however busy or quiet. You are also sometimes allowed to build a private siding. Railways have Part 8, Class A of the GPDO 2015, which allows development on operational land, but not new hotels, stations or bridges. It also doesn't cover new factories except when they are wholly in a station.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top