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Rail Travel Vouchers to be replaced by cash refunds/compensation.

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bnm

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From the BBC:

End of the line for rail compensation vouchers

Millions of rail passengers who suffer travel delays will soon be able to claim refunds in cash, after a major policy change, the BBC has learned. Up to now most train companies have only offered vouchers as compensation.

The voucher system has long been criticised by consumer groups, as vouchers cannot always be used online or to access the cheapest fares. The Rail Delivery Group, representing train operators and Network Rail, said the change would come in this summer.

"Planned changes to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage will enable passengers to claim their compensation in cash, instead of rail vouchers," said a spokesman. "This will be a welcome move for passengers."

It is not yet known whether customers with existing vouchers will be able to swap them for cash.

'Our money'

The move marks a major change in policy, as the current voucher system has been in place for around 20 years.

The news was welcomed by Transport Focus, which has campaigned on the issue for some time. James Daley, a consumer expert with Fairer Finance, called it "a victory for common sense".

It was also welcomed by Budd Shenkin and his wife Ann, two Californian tourists who were frustrated by the voucher system. After paying for first-class tickets on a train from Inverness to Edinburgh last month, they boarded the train to find no first class available. When they tried to get a refund at the ticket office, they were told they could only have vouchers - of little use to a couple only in the UK on holiday.

"They sold us seats that didn't exist - and then wouldn't give us our money back," said Ann, a retired lawyer.

But her husband Budd said he was pleased to see that good sense had now prevailed. "Implementation is always an issue, however," he told the BBC. "Nothing short of putting a credit onto the customer's credit card without a physical visit to the office should be acceptable."

After being approached by the BBC, ScotRail eventually agreed to refund their money.

Delay Repay

However, Transport Focus is still concerned that too few people claim refunds when their trains are delayed. In a survey published in 2013, it found that 88% of passengers entitled to compensation did not bother to ask for it.

And that's despite the fact that the rules on compensation have been widely toughened up. Nearly half of the 26 train operators have adopted the so-called Delay Repay guarantee, which means passengers are entitled to redress after a delay of as little as 30 minutes. Furthermore, those train companies cannot get out of paying by claiming that the delay was not their fault, because they, in their turn, can claim compensation from Network Rail if the delay was caused by signalling problems or other network issues.

The companies not signed up to Delay Repay usually offer compensation when a train is at least 60 minutes late.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33008010

Somewhat out of the blue is this announcement. Very welcome it is too. Implementation and logistics will be interesting. Particularly when it's one TOC receiving the request for compensation and another TOC responsible for compensating for the delay. Will it be cheques issued by post? A requirement for card/bank details to process payments? Vouchers exchangeable for cash? Or multiple options? The devil will be in the detail.
 
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Starmill

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I have no problem with the existing scheme. Curious that they would seek to ditch it. Make the vouchers easier to use, sure, perhaps by adding an e-voicher option. But I don't think cash is necessary.

I shall be unhappy if it is cheques. Otherwise I'll wait and see.
 
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Mojo

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TfL recently started offering refunds instead of Vouchers, with money being payed back into
Oyster accounts or as an electronic funds transfer into bank accounts.

I feel the compensation scheme is alresdy fairly generous; there are plenty of real issues Transport Focus could have campaigned on; this is not one of them.
 

jon0844

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I guess it's a no brainer option though, as it must be cheaper to do a bank payment than issue vouchers, post them, then have to handle them at stations etc.

By just paying back cash, eventually stations won't need to process them at all.

It's clearly being done to save the industry money, and it's also a PR win. Wonder why it wasn't done sooner?
 

theageofthetra

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Good idea on the face of it but in classic BBC style the reporter fails to explain how a Californian couple will recieve compensation paid in STG to a USD bank account. The fees levied on their side could well be half the payment! Cheques would be even worse.
 

DelayRepay

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I guess it's a no brainer option though, as it must be cheaper to do a bank payment than issue vouchers, post them, then have to handle them at stations etc.

By just paying back cash, eventually stations won't need to process them at all.

It's clearly being done to save the industry money...

Not sure about that Jon - you would have to factor in:
- People more likely to claim if they're getting cash (especially irregular train users who might not bother with vouchers)
- I expect there are a lot of vouchers that never get used, either because people don't have an opportunity, can't be bothered or forget about them
- Possibly an increase in fraudulent claims.

I'll welcome this, but they cynic in me wonders if the TOCs have agreed to to it because it removes another barrier to closing or reducing hours of ticket officers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good idea on the face of it but in classic BBC style the reporter fails to explain how a Californian couple will recieve compensation paid in STG to a USD bank account. The fees levied on their side could well be half the payment! Cheques would be even worse.

Credit card refund? Assuming that was how they paid for the tickets.

I expect the number of foreign tourists trying to claim compensation is low (in their case, it wasn't even for a delay) so I think this couple was a poor example to use in the news report.
 

34D

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Planned changes to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage..... eeek
 

chubs

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Good!

I like to buy my tickets online, getting vouchers means having to schlep to the station then queue for ages.
 

Goatboy

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I don't welcome this. Hear me out..

I personally think a full cash refund for a 2 hour delay is excessive. I sometimes (Not very often anymore, it's now HALF the price to drive so it's difficult to make the case for rail) make a 4-5 hour rail journey. It is enormously irritating when I am delayed by 2 hours but I still get there - and my return leg is often on time - so to be able to travel this entire journey free of charge by virtue of a cash refund for a delay is whilst lovely for me incredible disproportionate.

Vouchers offer a slightly different form of compensation which I think is more appropriate to the inconvenience offered.

Frankly having to offer things like this is yet another cost pressure on the rail industry and makes the prospect of reasonably priced fares ever further away. Sigh.
 

Tetchytyke

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You are already entitled to cash refunds after delays during air travel, so I'm pleased the railway industry are finally going to join us in the 21st century. I'd expect bank transfers to be cheaper to administer than the current system of posting the vouchers out and then doing the accounting when they are spent. Vouchers are as out-dated as travel warrants.
 

Goatboy

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The air travel thing is ridiculous, too. Whilst I'd welcome a 650 euro cash payout after a 3 hour delay on a long haul journey there is no way I'd have suffered 650 euro worth of distress. It's just disproportionate. Most peoples tickets don't even cost that.
 

PHILIPE

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Rail Delivery Group. It's about the first time since it was set up that I've heard of it doing anything !!!
 

Haywain

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Iteresting that the report specifically refers to compensation for delays. Presumably RTVs will remain in existence for other reasons.
 

chubs

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I don't welcome this. Hear me out..

I personally think a full cash refund for a 2 hour delay is excessive. I sometimes (Not very often anymore, it's now HALF the price to drive so it's difficult to make the case for rail) make a 4-5 hour rail journey. It is enormously irritating when I am delayed by 2 hours but I still get there - and my return leg is often on time - so to be able to travel this entire journey free of charge by virtue of a cash refund for a delay is whilst lovely for me incredible disproportionate.

Vouchers offer a slightly different form of compensation which I think is more appropriate to the inconvenience offered.

Frankly having to offer things like this is yet another cost pressure on the rail industry and makes the prospect of reasonably priced fares ever further away. Sigh.

So because you like to drive rail users shouldn't be given cash refunds?

Vouchers really aren't appropriate, what if the customer is not a regular traveller and wont use them for some time?

This is clearly the way forward and should have happened a long time ago.

I also hope it isn't cheques.
 

SS4

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Planned changes to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage..... eeek

Indeed. I shall not be surprised if they haven't snuck in a raft of measures eroding passengers' rights but let the media focus on this one.
 

A1

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I think this is a good change. Save postage fees, printing fees, handling fees, processing fees, and as some TOCs (Eg Southern) were treating them the same as cash, why go through the paper route.
 

Goatboy

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So because you like to drive rail users shouldn't be given cash refunds?

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from what I said.

Vouchers really aren't appropriate, what if the customer is not a regular traveller and wont use them for some time?

This is clearly the way forward and should have happened a long time ago.

It obviously is the way forward but it shouldn't be - unless the compensation levels are reduced. Do you really think that a journey from say London to Scotland that is perfectly on time on the outward leg and 2 hours late on the way back should be completely free of charge by virtue of a cash refund?

You actually think thats proportionate?

The driving point was that rail fares are, in some areas, already enormously expensive and increasing cost through cash refunds is surely not going to help matters.
 

First class

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You think this is a benefit? On the face of it, it looks like one.

But how am I going to make this revenue neutral? By increasing connection times at stations artificially, by padding out timetables, by reducing "goodwill", by refusing 29/59 minute claims, by enforcing NRCoC rigidly, particularly delay exemptions etc.

Additionally, more claims will be referred to Prosecutors, which inevitably will end up finding fraud cases when cash is involved.

Personally, I will be looking at, and reviewing long distance Advance and non regulated fare increases if required.
 

Tetchytyke

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My understanding is that TVs are already accounted for as cash, so I don't see why everyone is predicting a huge increase in cost. Especially as TOCs already do supremely well out of delays already- for some TOCs, a delayed train is more profitable than a right-time train.
 

Flamingo

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Given that it might make fraudulent claims a bit harder (and subject to greater penalties) I wonder if this will be universally welcomed by all who make regular claims. Also, the claims will be paid back to the penny - no more rounding it up to the nearest £5 or £10...
 
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Goatboy

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Given that it might make fraudulent claims a bit harder (and subject to greater penalties) I wonder if this will be universally welcomed by all who make regular claims. Also, the claims will be paid back to the penny - no more rounding it up to the nearest £5 or £10...

FGW already do so on RTV's anyway - I have an RTV here for exactly the cost of the ticket to the nearest penny.
 

beefqueen

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The bigger issue is the disproportionate length of delay required (for some journeys) before there is any entitlement to even a partial refund.

I commute on southeastern from SE London at least a few times a week. My journey should take about 20 minutes (it used to be under 20 minutes but they've padded the timetable since the LB work started). Nine times out of ten my journey is delayed by at least five minutes - a 25% delay; often by more than ten minutes (a 50% delay).

It seems wrong to me that someone travelling on the same TOC from, say Margate, will get a refund for a half hour delay (a 33% or less delay) but I'm not entitled to any refund unless my journey is delayed by 150%. It's also wrong that if I were travelling by Underground I would be entitled to a refund for anything over 15 minutes.

Why not calculate entitlement by percentage delay, rather than fixed minutes? The answer seems obvious - to save money.
 

DownSouth

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You are already entitled to cash refunds after delays during air travel, so I'm pleased the railway industry are finally going to join us in the 21st century. I'd expect bank transfers to be cheaper to administer ...
And even cheaper would be a credit card refund, especially for people who purchased their ticket from a website or app operated by the TOC where the details would already be stored.

My understanding is that TVs are already accounted for as cash, so I don't see why everyone is predicting a huge increase in cost.
Because a certain proportion of vouchers will go without being redeemed as people throw them away or forget about them, which allows the original revenue to stay in the system.

This is why retail companies love gift vouchers/cards/tickets etc, because they get the money up front (which they can use to earn interest, purchase inventory or service debt) and a statistically predictable probability that they'll never get used. It's effectively a negative interest loan with a chance of no repayment being required.

I don't welcome this. Hear me out..

I personally think a full cash refund for a 2 hour delay is excessive. I sometimes (Not very often anymore, it's now HALF the price to drive so it's difficult to make the case for rail) make a 4-5 hour rail journey. It is enormously irritating when I am delayed by 2 hours but I still get there - and my return leg is often on time - so to be able to travel this entire journey free of charge by virtue of a cash refund for a delay is whilst lovely for me incredible disproportionate.
How much of a delay do you think is acceptable before it becomes fair to say that the contracted service has not been delivered and should therefore be refunded?

How will partial refunds act as a deterrent to providing a shoddy service with no margin for error?

If anything, it should be expanded to cover consequential losses which can be verified, e.g. a missed appointment or an event ticket becoming useless.

The air travel thing is ridiculous, too. Whilst I'd welcome a 650 euro cash payout after a 3 hour delay on a long haul journey there is no way I'd have suffered 650 euro worth of distress. It's just disproportionate. Most peoples tickets don't even cost that.
It needs to be disproportionately high, otherwise it will not serve its main purpose of encouraging airlines to make their service more resilient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why not calculate entitlement by percentage delay, rather than fixed minutes? The answer seems obvious - to save money.
For sure.

It should be the lesser of the proportional delay and the fixed time period (but perhaps with a slightly more generous fixed time) except if the proportional delay is a minor delay below a fixed minimum such as ten minutes.
 

SS4

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The bigger issue is the disproportionate length of delay required (for some journeys) before there is any entitlement to even a partial refund.

I commute on southeastern from SE London at least a few times a week. My journey should take about 20 minutes (it used to be under 20 minutes but they've padded the timetable since the LB work started). Nine times out of ten my journey is delayed by at least five minutes - a 25% delay; often by more than ten minutes (a 50% delay).

It seems wrong to me that someone travelling on the same TOC from, say Margate, will get a refund for a half hour delay (a 33% or less delay) but I'm not entitled to any refund unless my journey is delayed by 150%. It's also wrong that if I were travelling by Underground I would be entitled to a refund for anything over 15 minutes.

Why not calculate entitlement by percentage delay, rather than fixed minutes? The answer seems obvious - to save money.

If your train is five minutes late isn't it classed as on time?

As you've demonstrated it's an unfortunate fact of maths that percentagesare inflated when your original sample is small. To take this argument to it's conclusion LIC-LTV is three minutes so a five minute delay is 167%.

Lateness is absolute in much of the world rather than percentage based. I am either late for work or an appointment or I am not late. My destination is not going to be open longer if I was delayed based on a percentage of total time. Being 5 or 10 minutes late generally more salvageable than 30 or 45 minutes.

A hybrid would work best IMO. For example 50% of (scheduled) journey time subject to a minimum of fifteen minutes.
 

gray1404

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I welcome this move. I am waiting to see if some TOCs will allow you to send vouchers back for a BACs/cheque payment. I am hoping Virgin West Coast will do this! I know London Midland already do for amounts £30+ I think a TOC will be more likely to approve such a request if you've got vouchers already, though once the new system is in place, as giving out cash in electronic form will become the norm.

I love the Delay Repay system. I think it is fair and right if you are delayed then you should be compensated. Totally! I only wish it was a standardised system i.e. all TOCs operated under the provisions of Delay Repay and not just some.
 

talldave

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If I pay a premium for a high speed service with a journey of 24/25 minutes, delay repay would make much more sense as a percentage calculation, bearing mind I've paid good money to halve the journey time.
 

MrCub

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I'm going to miss them. I know it's annoying not to be able to use them online because some advance tickets are online-only, but I rather enjoy saving them up and then buying a nice free trip somewhere. The cash will just get put back into the general 'pot' rather than being saved. Yes, I know this is silly and doesn't really work as an argument but to make the point, I've got £110 in vouchers and another couple of months until my Isle of Wight season/Gold Card needs renewing.
 

bb21

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You think this is a benefit? On the face of it, it looks like one.

But how am I going to make this revenue neutral? By increasing connection times at stations artificially, by padding out timetables, by reducing "goodwill", by refusing 29/59 minute claims, by enforcing NRCoC rigidly, particularly delay exemptions etc.

Additionally, more claims will be referred to Prosecutors, which inevitably will end up finding fraud cases when cash is involved.

Personally, I will be looking at, and reviewing long distance Advance and non regulated fare increases if required.

You know what? You spoke my mind exactly. There is no free lunch.

However compensation is done, people will moan, unless things are free. To me, this is a waste of the limited resources for the likes of Passenger Focus. There are far more important issues such as Northern's queue times which affect many people on a daily basis rather than the form in which compensation is paid out.

And yes, with this, I very much fear what other changes are forthcoming. The rail companies won't lose out, it will be the passengers (some passengers), or the taxpayers, who lose out in order to pay for this.
 
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