SWT Leaving Clapham jct without guard onboard.

[GingerRH]

So this evening a train departed Clapham Junction towards Wimbledon and the guard was left on the platform at Clapham. Passengers were stuck onboard at Earlsfield as the driver couldn't open the doors. Train continues to Wimbledon where it was later cancelled awaiting the Gaurd on a following train.


How did the train manage to depart without the Gaurd onboard? Surely he/she must have closed and locked all doors and then stepped back onto the platform?

Anyone have any more info or ideas as to how this happened?

 

[Skimble19]

Why couldn't the driver open the doors? Do the cabs on SWT units not have door open buttons? Or was it because the driver wouldn't have been able to dispatch the train when he/she needed to close them that was actually the issue?

 

[Bigfoot]

On swt the driver has nothing to do with the opening and closing of doors in service. Only when required to prep the train for service will they use a door panel.

 

[Alistair G.]

Very strange case!. Surely the driver should only depart when he got the "2 bells" from the guard, and this is usually only given after all passengers have got on or off the train, all doors are closed and have been "locked" and the guard will then buzz the driver to say all ready to depart. Until the driver gets that he shouldn't be moving (unless D.O.O of course but this isn't relevant here).

Would love to know more on this story if anyone hears anything else

 

[MartinB1]

This can happen on a SWT 455. If the guard operates the doors from a door panel in a drivers cab, and gives the ready to start signal whilst standing on the platform. If a guard has his door panel switched on, the train can move with his cab door still open. The guard in this case must have completed the station duties, got the doors closed and reached up into the cab to press the ready to start before stepping onto the train himself.

 

[SPADTrap]

Sounds like something you'd never hear the end of! Ribbing material for years!

 

[SouthStand]

Why were the passengers stuck onboard at Earlsfield? Couldn't the driver exit his cab within the train to unlock the doors?

 

[whoosh]

There might be a Door Key Switch which the guard will use to operate the door controls. If there is, then I expect other door controls won't work, so the driver would've been unable to open the doors from his cab. I expect drivers carry a Door Key for when they shut or open doors on Empty Coaching Stock and for testing doors when prepping trains in sidings, but having his own key wouldn't have helped as inserting it would've meant two keys switched in which wouldn't've worked and probably tripped a circuit breaker for the doors.

 

[tsr]

I am not familiar with SWT 455s as I only have anything to do with Southern ones, but if their door controls are similar, the driver would have to exit their cab, walk down to the intermediate cab with the door key active (or presumably a panel on SWT's ones), release the doors from there and then walk back to the cab for further relevant communications. There may have been too much confusion to do this, or maybe SWT's drivers are forbidden from releasing the doors even in these circumstances. The area with the key switch should be accessible using the keys a driver carries, AFAIK.

That's assuming this was a 455. I have absolutely no idea about other traction SWT uses.

As a further point, I am very unsure about why you would give 2 on the bell whilst standing on the platform. There's not really any point as the train should be safe to depart with you on board. I can understand giving 2 on the bell whilst the local door is still just slamming shut with the guard already onboard, but 455s are pretty quick off the mark and there wouldn't seem to be any time saving from giving 2 whilst still on the platform! Seems taking a bit too much of a risk to me. As I say, though, I don't work or have anything to do with SWT 455s or dispatching them, so even if this is what happened, I could have missed something.

 

[Antman]

Sounds like something you'd never hear the end of! Ribbing material for years!

My thoughts exactly??????

I know I'm stating the obvious but shouldn't the guard be on the train and not the platform when giving the signal?

 

[Darandio]

I know I'm stating the obvious but shouldn't the guard be on the train and not the platform when giving the signal?

How could he give the signal when off the train?

 

[TheEdge]

My thoughts exactly��

I know I'm stating the obvious but shouldn't the guard be on the train and not the platform when giving the signal?

I was thinking that. I know this it is quite easy to lock yourself out of a 153 like this and it's not unknown for a driver to get interlock and depart on autopilot. But not to give the RTS on the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why were the passengers stuck onboard at Earlsfield? Couldn't the driver exit his cab within the train to unlock the doors?

Presumably it would not be permitted for the driver to open, close and dispatch himself - as soon as he released them the train would have to be terminated. So I guess on realising the problem he contacted his Control who identified the best place for this to occur and the train to be terminated to the benefit of the majority of passengers on board?

Slightly surprised it didn't have to be terminated at Earlsfield anyway, but then I suppose up until then it was no worse than any DOO train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How could he give the signal when off the train?

455 cab doors (same as 507s and 508s) don't have an interlock on the staff door if the key is in (possibly even if it isn't on 507s and 508s), if I'm reading rightly. So the guard could be standing on the platform while pushing the signal button.

 

[185]

Any good guard worth his 10 cents knows where the external egress or door cock is which (hopefully) activates a door interlock kicking the brakes in. Not suggesting I've had to ever do it of course, and the clown driving the 158 now drives Australian trains. Allegedly

 

[scott118]

Any good guard worth his 10 cents knows where the external egress or door cock is which (hopefully) activates a door interlock kicking the brakes in. Not suggesting I've had to ever do it of course, and the clown driving the 158 now drives Australian trains. Allegedly

I think we know where the 'cock' is/are....

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It could have been that the guard closed the doors, gave the driver the bell, but for some reason or another (s)he didn't move straight away, so the guard may have thought that they didn't have the signal, so being conscientious (made what's now a goof!) stepped out onto the platform to double check, only for the driver to then take power and go PDQ, leaving the guard on the platform!

They won't be the first & they won't be the last, it used to happen every so often at Surbiton and the guard would have to be taxied to either Esher or Hinchley Wood!

The reason the driver won't open the doors is two fold.

1. There was an "incident" where a driver activated the doors (with all the best intentions & it was proven there was no malice), which could have been very nasty indeed, so there was an instruction issued that drivers must NOT operate the doors of the train whilst in service, which is fair enough.

2. If it's rush hour the platforms are going to be packed, the DKS will be 99.9% of the time active in the centre cabs & most definitely not the leading one, possibly the rearmost should both the DKS be defective in the centre cabs (unlikely). Now bear in mind that drivers have now been instructed NOT to activate the doors from the previous incident and you can see the problem.

The driver's damned if they do activate them to allow passengers off, they're damned if they don't, the driver may risk a serious charge sheet if they do.

So what do you do? Me, ring control on GSM-R or ring a DM on your mobile (from the safety of the platform) and get authority to open the doors & detrain the whole lot and take the train ECS.

 

[Goldfish62]

On swt the driver has nothing to do with the opening and closing of doors in service. Only when required to prep the train for service will they use a door panel.

Some drivers will open the doors of ECS stock they bring into Waterloo to save passengers standing on the platform until the guard arrives - sometimes up to 5 minutes later.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Some drivers will open the doors of ECS stock they bring into Waterloo to save passengers standing on the platform until the guard arrives - sometimes up to 5 minutes later.

But that's not in passenger service is it! :roll:

And if you've been working together earlier, you can ask them whether they want you to release the doors on arrival. That way you have permission to do it!

 

[Clip]

It could have been that the guard closed the doors, gave the driver the bell, but for some reason or another (s)he didn't move straight away, so the guard may have thought that they didn't have the signal, so being conscientious (made what's now a goof!) stepped out onto the platform to double check, only for the driver to then take power and go PDQ, leaving the guard on the platform!

Can SWT trains move with a door open then? Im guessing in your scenario that he wouldve left the door open if he got on to the platform?

 

[Goldfish62]

But that's not in passenger service is it! :roll:

And if you've been working together earlier, you can ask them whether they want you to release the doors on arrival. That way you have permission to do it!

Correct, it's not in passenger service. Your point is..??:roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can SWT trains move with a door open then? Im guessing in your scenario that he wouldve left the door open if he got on to the platform?

Merseyrail 507s and 508s can if it's the staff door. I think it's suggested upthread that 455s can if it's the staff door *and* the key is in in that cab.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Correct, it's not in passenger service. Your point is..??:roll:

Did you not read what I said earlier. A driver isn't allowed to release the doors! it doesn't matter if it's ECS or In Service!

Not without permission!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can SWT trains move with a door open then? Im guessing in your scenario that he wouldve left the door open if he got on to the platform?

Yes, a local crew door can be open whilst in motion as it's on local control, but it's severely frowned upon and loads of paperwork!

 

[455driver]

As I used to work 455s (I do miss them :cry, and as everyone seems to have made their minds up exactly what happened can you tell me step by step please.

I am aware of 2 ways this can happen, one is the guards fault, giving 2 on the buzzer while stood on the platform/ stepping onto the train and then slipping off.
And the other is where the driver gets brake release when the passenger doors close and instinctively sets off (without getting 2) with the guard on the platform and the local cab door wide open. Yes this happened to me once when I was a guard but I managed to dive in the local door, he coffee the driver bought me was lovely!

These are 2 scenarios I can think of, I am sure there will be others!
either way somebody will be getting the wee wee ripped out of them for a while!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And the other is where the driver gets brake release when the passenger doors close and instinctively sets off (without getting 2) with the guard on the platform and the local cab door wide open. Yes this happened to me once when I was a guard but I managed to dive in the local door, he coffee the driver bought me was lovely!

On more modern stock, can the driver get a brake release while the guard has their "local door" open (the door they're operating the guard panel at)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On more modern stock, can the driver get a brake release while the guard has their "local door" open (the door they're operating the guard panel at)?

I don't *think* so. If for no other reason that a modern train has plug doors which are out of gauge when open.

 

[455driver]

On more modern stock, can the driver get a brake release while the guard has their "local door" open (the door they're operating the guard panel at)?

On most modern stock no, but yes on an SWT 455.

 

[Olaf]

So this evening a train departed Clapham Junction towards Wimbledon and the guard was left on the platform at Clapham. Passengers were stuck onboard at Earlsfield as the driver couldn't open the doors. Train continues to Wimbledon where it was later cancelled awaiting the Gaurd on a following train.


How did the train manage to depart without the Gaurd onboard? Surely he/she must have closed and locked all doors and then stepped back onto the platform?

Anyone have any more info or ideas as to how this happened?

Would this lead to the dismissal of the crew involved?

 

[najaB]

Would this lead to the dismissal of the crew involved?

There will be a meeting with the manager (there won't be tea or biscuits) but, unless they were already on a warning, then almost certainly not.

 

[455driver]

Would this lead to the dismissal of the crew involved?

Is that your answer for every mistake? :roll:

 

[LAX54]

This can happen on a SWT 455. If the guard operates the doors from a door panel in a drivers cab, and gives the ready to start signal whilst standing on the platform. If a guard has his door panel switched on, the train can move with his cab door still open. The guard in this case must have completed the station duties, got the doors closed and reached up into the cab to press the ready to start before stepping onto the train himself.

Can recall...more than once when I worked at Barnham, the fast Bton to Ports would arrive, and then have to wait for ages.....as the Guard was in a taxi en route from Worthing along the A27, they tended to 'ding ding' with door ajar, looking out, jolt of the unit, lost blance ended up on the platform, Driver blissfully unaware......all speed to the next stop...Barnham