Real Time Trains and 390 Diagrams

[hst43053]

Hi,

I am looking at a Chiltern working on RTT and it is 'pathed as class 158'. I am fully aware that this is for timings only and is not necessarily the type of stock allocated to the working. In this case it most certainly will not be as Chiltern have no 158s.

However, Virgin workings between New Street and Euston (or vice versa) say either:

Timed for 125mph max
Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit

Or,

Timed for 125mph max
Class 390 EMU

From this, am I able to actually deduce which workings are the 390s and which are the 221s, or is it still the same old story of the class being listed for timing purposes only?

If this assumption is incorrect do any of you have any information in regards to the allocation of stock on workings between the two stations?

It's become more confusing since the New Street/Wolves to Euston and New Street to Scotland services were combined. Therefore my old trick of a service starting/ending at New Street or Wolves being a 390 can't be all that relied upon.

Thanks, Chris.

 

[AndrewR232]

In my own experience, all services which say Diesel Multiple Unit run as 221s, those that say Class 390 are indeed 390s.

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I am looking at a Chiltern working on RTT and it is 'pathed as class 158'. I am fully aware that this is for timings only and is not necessarily the type of stock allocated to the working. In this case it most certainly will not be as Chiltern have no 158s.

The open data, which sites such as Realtimetrains/OpenTrainTimes/Raildar use, does not show what stock is allocated to work a service. It's just a timing load.

I'm not sure the difference between the slightly superior acceleration of a 68 compared to a DMU is worth amending the timings for. But even if they did, it wouldn't mean anything was guaranteed. Every time I've gone for a Chiltern loco hauled train recently (which isn't often) it has been a unit.

However, Virgin workings between New Street and Euston (or vice versa) say either:

Timed for 125mph max
Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit

Or,

Timed for 125mph max
Class 390 EMU

Yes, because there are differential Enhanced Permitted Speeds (EPS), in addition to the greater acceleration rate of a Pendolino, so the timings will differ more.

From this, am I able to actually deduce which workings are the 390s and which are the 221s, or is it still the same old story of the class being listed for timing purposes only?

The latter - it's just a timing load.

If this assumption is incorrect do any of you have any information in regards to the allocation of stock on workings between the two stations?

There will be regular allocations but these can change, depending on stock availability, displacement due to engineering works, disruption etc.

There is currently no publicly available list of what stock is actually working any particular train. So you just have to hope you get the allocation you're expecting on the day.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think from sightings and reports that the 221 and 390 for VT are correct in this case.

 

[The Planner]

I'm not sure the difference between the slightly superior acceleration of a 68 compared to a DMU is worth amending the timings for. But even if they did, it wouldn't mean anything was guaranteed. Every time I've gone for a Chiltern loco hauled train recently (which isn't often) it has been a unit.

There is enough for them to have their own set, there is the element of keeping things simpler in terms of timetabling them but give it some time and it may be the case that they have to to make any further timetable tweaks work.

 

[hst43053]

The open data, which sites such as Realtimetrains/OpenTrainTimes/Raildar use, does not show what stock is allocated to work a service. It's just a timing load.

I'm not sure the difference between the slightly superior acceleration of a 68 compared to a DMU is worth amending the timings for. But even if they did, it wouldn't mean anything was guaranteed. Every time I've gone for a Chiltern loco hauled train recently (which isn't often) it has been a unit.


Yes, because there are differential Enhanced Permitted Speeds (EPS), in addition to the greater acceleration rate of a Pendolino, so the timings will differ more.


The latter - it's just a timing load.

There will be regular allocations but these can change, depending on stock availability, displacement due to engineering works, disruption etc.

There is currently no publicly available list of what stock is actually working any particular train. So you just have to hope you get the allocation you're expecting on the day.

Thanks for your detailed answer. There has been some mention on here previously of a Virgin-Trains Yahoo Group having a list of the diagrams for 390s and 221s. But I cannot find a group with such a name when I search for it on the Yahoo Groups website.

 

[Mag_seven]

However, Virgin workings between New Street and Euston (or vice versa) say either:

Timed for 125mph max
Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit

Or,

Timed for 125mph max
Class 390 EMU

If RTT states:
Timed for 125mph max
Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit

then it IS diagrammed to be a Voyager

If RTT states:
Timed for 125mph max
Class 390 EMU

then it IS diagrammed to be a Class 390.

On the day it may differ, but these are the actual planned stock for the VWC services shown- regardless of what anyone else on these forums may state.

 

[hst43053]

If RTT states:
Timed for 125mph max
Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit

then it IS diagrammed to be a Voyager

If RTT states:
Timed for 125mph max
Class 390 EMU

then it IS diagrammed to be a Class 390.

On the day it may differ, but these are the actual planned stock for the VWC services shown- regardless of what anyone else on these forums may state.

I have always thought the same. Just out of interest (not at all doubting you), how do know this to be the case, because your answer is the exact opposite to what yorkie has said?

Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

I have always thought the same. Just out of interest (not at all doubting you), how do know this to be the case, because your answer is the exact opposite to what yorkie has said?

Thanks.

How is it the opposite?

Mag_seven is saying that all the trains currently diagrammed for 390 operation are also timed as such, and that all the trains currently diagrammed for Voyager operation are also timed as such. I am not in a position to confirm or deny this and am not doing so.

What I am saying is that the information shown in open data times is just a timing load and not stating what stock is allocated.

Now if someone is able to confirm that the timing loads used for a particular Train Company also match the stock allocations, then that means you can use the timing load information for that Train Company to determine booked traction.

But the fact remains: the open data sites show timing loads, and the relevance of this will vary by operator and circumstance.

Did you read this post? That person is an expert.

 

[hst43053]

How is it the opposite?

Mag_seven is saying that all the trains currently diagrammed for 390 operation are also timed as such, and that all the trains currently diagrammed for Voyager operation are also timed as such. I am not in a position to confirm or deny this and am not doing so.

What I am saying is that the information shown in open data times is just a timing load and not stating what stock is allocated.

Now if someone is able to confirm that the timing loads used for a particular Train Company also match the stock allocations, then that means you can use the timing load information for that Train Company to determine booked traction.

But the fact remains: the open data sites show timing loads, and the relevance of this will vary by operator and circumstance.

Did you read this post? That person is an expert.

Hi,

In hindsight, perhaps opposite was not the correct word to have used. To keep it as simple as possible:

I understood the post made by Mag_seven to mean that all workings timed for a 390 or a Voyager are also allocated/diagrammed as such.

Whereas in your post, I did not get the impression that you were stating the same (I am not doubting what you have written):

I asked in my original post 'From this, am I able to actually deduce which workings are the 390s and which are the 221s, or is it still the same old story of the class being listed for timing purposes only?', you answered, 'The latter - it's just a timing load.'

Mag_seven's answer to my original post seemed seemed the 'opposite' to yours, as if I did understand his post correctly, it did suggest that from the the part on RTT that reads 'Class 390 EMU' or 'pathed as a DMU' I would be able to deduce what stock would be diagrammed for any given working.

I apologise in advance if I have got the wrong end of the stick of any posts made by you or Mag_seven.

Additionally, regarding the post on timing loads, may I ask what is meant by CIF?

Thanks, Chris.

 

[headshot119]

CIF = Common Interchange Format

It's a type of file that Network Rail use to distribute timetable information in.

 

[yorkie]

I understood the post made by Mag_seven to mean that all workings timed for a 390 or a Voyager are also allocated/diagrammed as such.

It is very possible that all workings are diagrammed as such

I couldn't say, though if Mag_seven says it is, that's fine, I am not in a position to disagree.

Whereas in your post, I did not get the impression that you were stating the same (I am not doubting what you have written):

I asked in my original post 'From this, am I able to actually deduce which workings are the 390s and which are the 221s, or is it still the same old story of the class being listed for timing purposes only?', you answered, 'The latter - it's just a timing load.'

Mag_seven's answer to my original post seemed seemed the 'opposite' to yours, as if I did understand his post correctly, it did suggest that from the the part on RTT that reads 'Class 390 EMU' or 'pathed as a DMU' I would be able to deduce what stock would be diagrammed for any given working.

I can assure you that the terms such as "pathed as" or "timed for" literally mean that, and not "diagrammed for".

I was talking to some experienced planners today, one of them mentioned XC as an example where several services are timed for HST but are not diagrammed to be.

I think it's important that people realise the open data is not showing what is diagrammed to run, as this is a common misunderstanding.

If it can be confirmed that, on certain TOCs, the timing detail displayed on open data websites also matches the actual diagramming, that's useful to know. But that doesn't mean the data is showing what is diagrammed and there are no guarantees the situation won't change.

 

[Hophead]

On a related note, then (you could call it Real Time Trains and 377s) - is anybody able to clarify the phrase "Timed for 100mph max" which seems to apply to all 377 journeys on Southern?

While I'm aware that Electrostars are nominally 100 mph units, I don't believe that they are passed for any more than 90 mph on the 3rd rail and, in any case, there's nowhere for them to exceed that speed, so far as I'm aware. Not only that, but even services to East Grinstead and stoppers to Reigate & Horsham get the same wording and they've got no chance of getting up to 100.

 

[The Planner]

If they can do 100mph then that is in the description regardless, whether they can achieve that doesn't matter as the running time is based on what can be attained.

 

[55z]

RTT shows what the train is timed for NOT necessarily what it is diagrammed for. The 221 on the WCML have a different speed profile to the 390's and at some places the enhanced speed is lower for a 221.

 

[Elecman]

As I understand it if it is timed for a Pendo then under normal operating circumstances that's what will operate the service but there is no guarantee wether it would be an 11 or 9 car, if timed for a Voyager then that is what would be expected as it would be extremely difficult to get a Pendo to Chester/ Shrewsbury or Blackpool North !!!

 

[krus_aragon]

as it would be extremely difficult to get a Pendo to Chester/ Shrewsbury or Blackpool North !!!

I'm sure you could get a Pendolino to Chester... if you were going through Crewe at a high enough speed, and had clear signals all the way. The trouble would be getting the thing back again! :P

 

[headshot119]

As I understand it if it is timed for a Pendo then under normal operating circumstances that's what will operate the service but there is no guarantee wether it would be an 11 or 9 car, if timed for a Voyager then that is what would be expected as it would be extremely difficult to get a Pendo to Chester/ Shrewsbury or Blackpool North !!!

I'll just leave this here......... It looks to me like a Class 390 at Bangor, using the powers of deduction I have to conclude it managed to get through Chester

Photo courtesy of RCTS http://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/merseyside/images/390052 Bangor 28Nov08.jpg

 

[berneyarms]

I'll just leave this here......... It looks to me like a Class 390 at Bangor, using the powers of deduction I have to conclude it managed to get through Chester

Photo courtesy of RCTS http://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/merseyside/images/390052 Bangor 28Nov08.jpg

There were Class 390s (hauled by Class 57 between Crewe and Holyhead) along North Wales until a couple of years ago on Saturdays.

 

[headshot119]

There were Class 390s (hauled by Class 57 between Crewe and Holyhead) along North Wales until a couple of years ago on Saturdays.

Yes I know. I was just making the point that it isn't as hard as people make out to get a 390 to chester