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Is there a difference in prosecution outcome?

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ohsostupid

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Hi,

First post here and hoping for constructive advice.

After being very stupid I am fully expecting to be prosecuted for fare evasion and tampering with a ticket in a moment of desperation.

I've been interviewd by the TOC under caution and was told its pretty definite I'll be prosecuted BUT it may be by the TOC or it might be by the British Transport Police.

3 questions,

-Is there any difference to me who prosecutes me?
Is the outcome the same? In other words a fine, the fare, costs and a criminal record.

-Is my employer automatically told about it or is it just on my record for whenever anyone searches for it?

- how long does it stay on my 'record' until it dissappears completely?

Thanks for your help
 
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Puffing Devil

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First post here and hoping for constructive advice.

After being very stupid I am fully expecting to be prosecuted for fare evasion and tampering with a ticket in a moment of desperation.

I've been interviewd by the TOC under caution and was told its pretty definite I'll be prosecuted BUT it may be by the TOC or it might be by the British Transport Police.

3 questions:

-Is there any difference to me who prosecutes me? Is the outcome the same? In other words a fine, the fare, costs and a criminal record.


No difference. It's the charges that will decide on the sentence. If the BTP prosecute, the costs requested will likely be smaller as it will be the CPS in court. However, the BTP charges would be more serious and a greater penalty would follow - you could be looking at a community penalty. It's hard to be specific without more information.

-Is my employer automatically told about it or is it just on my record for whenever anyone searches for it?


The court appearance is a matter of public record and may be picked up by the local press. There is no automatic reporting to your employer*. There is no criminal law that forces you to disclose - your contract of employment may be a different matter.

*The exception is if financial penalties were collected through attachment of earnings - unlikely unless you do not meet repayment terms set by the court.

- how long does it stay on my 'record' until it dissappears completely?

That depends on the outcome of your case. Useful information here on spent convictions and disclosure: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/Pages/convictions.aspx
 
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DaveNewcastle

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. . . .

-Is my employer automatically told about it or is it just on my record for whenever anyone searches for it?


The court appearance is a matter of public record and may be picked up by the local press. There is no automatic reporting to your employer*. There is no criminal law that forces you to disclose - your contract of employment may be a different matter.

*The exception is if financial penalties were collected through attachment of earnings - unlikely unless you do not meet repayment terms set by the court.
I agree, and am replying just to emphasise your point about charges remaining unpaid becoming known to an employer (as there is a common belief that employers are not notified of the Conviction of one of their employees).

I agree that if the Court's fines, VS, damages, awared costs and the new CCC are not received within 10 days of the due date printed on the Further Steps Notice issued by the Court, then an attachment of earnings payable to the Treasury via HMRC will be instructed through the employer's payroll. How employers deal with the knowledge of such an attachment of earnings will vary greatly. An attachment of earnings can arise from many causes.

I've been interviewd by the TOC under caution and was told its pretty definite I'll be prosecuted BUT it may be by the TOC or it might be by the British Transport Police.

. . . .

-Is there any difference to me who prosecutes me?
Is the outcome the same? In other words a fine, the fare, costs and a criminal record.
The outcome for you, if you are Not Guilty, will be the same whoever brings the prosecution against you.

The outcome for you if you are Guilty will be affected slightly by whoever brings the prosecution to Court. The chances are that the BTP will claim higher costs in their preparation of the proceedings against you than most of the in-house Railway Company prosecutions teams. But the fine, the damages (unpaid fares), the Victim Surcharge and the new Criminal Courts Charge will be the same, regardless of who brings the prosecution.
 
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ohsostupid

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Hi all,

Prosecution by the Train Company or Brit Transport Police.

(for fare evasion and altered ticket)

Is prosecution always by a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution"?

In other words do people always get a NIP to begin with. They can then plead guilty by post (after filling out all the NIP forms)?

Thanks
 

DaveNewcastle

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Probably the most significant document in the sequence of events will be the Summons.

Once the Company (or the Police) have decided that there is enough evidence to support a Prosecution, and that it is in their interest (or the public interest) to pursue a Prosecution, then they will submit their claim forms to a Court. The Court will then issue a Summons to the Defendant (that's you) which summons you to appear in Court, and including the request for you to reply indicating whether you will plea 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.

The Notice is just a letter inviting you to supply information about the incident which will assist in deciding whether or not there is an Offence which might be go forward to a prosecution.
 
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ohsostupid

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Hi all,

I am expecting a letter from TOC or BTP taking me to court for fare evasion and tampering with ticket.

I have no idea when this may be, but I am concious I may be out of the country (on holiday) with wife and children in August and this may be when the court date is.

If this is the case, can I ask for it to be postponed (or even brought forward) to when I am NOT on holiday?

Thanks
 

DaveNewcastle

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If you know which Court will be hearing the matter, and that a Summons has been requested, then 'yes', you should be able to agree a convenient date for the 3 parties, the Court, the Prosecutor and yourself.

But as you seem not to be sure who is Prosecuting you (you mention BTP and 'TOC') then I'll guess that you don't know who is Prosecutng you, and presumably you don't know which Court will be hearing the matter.
In that case, I'll assume that no Court has been asked to hear the matter yet. So all you need to do is contact the Prosecution, and arrange it with them.

But as you also seem to be in some doubt about who is prosecuting you, then I don't think that there's much that you can do at present!
Are you sure that you have committed an offence that will be prosecuted against you by someone? How do you know that without knowing who it is?
 

ainsworth74

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I've merged two threads that appear to be related to the same issue together. So anyone wanting to reply to the last post by the OP may wish to read through the whole thread to refresh themselves on the details.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I've merged two threads that appear to be related to the same issue together. So anyone wanting to reply to the last post by the OP may wish to read through the whole thread to refresh themselves on the details.
Thanks.

Now that I can see the additional information, specifically that you attended an interview, then it becomes much simpler. Write to the interviewing officer who you've already spoken to about the incident. You can follow it up with a phone call to be sure, but a written record is advisable.
 

ohsostupid

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Hi,

Thanks for all your help.

I think I will write a letter to the TOC guy that interviewed me to reiterate the case, emphasizing my stupidity/remorsefulness and highlighting other mitigating circumstances that I didnt think of 'off the cuff' at the interview.

I can then also mention me being out of the country on xyz dates.

If I understand it correctly, the next correspondence I will (most likely) receive will be the court summons - do I HAVE to attend? - and whether I attend or not, I will be fined, repay the fare, other extra bits to pay plus a criminal record. I am a first offender and have cooperated fully.

It is touch and go whether I can pay all fines etc in one lump sum - how long do they usually give to pay? Otherwise I guess they go thru my income/expenditure breakdown and decide a payment plan for me.

After all of that my next hurdle is that I work at a junior level in financial services, (but nothing to do with client money or advice). I hope to xxx they don't instantly fire me. If I cant work I cant pay the fines etc (hopefully the TOC/BTP and/or judge will appreciate that).

Thanks
 

najaB

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If I understand it correctly, the next correspondence I will (most likely) receive will be the court summons - do I HAVE to attend?
Not if you intend to plead guilty, in fact if you do then there won't even be a court case.
It is touch and go whether I can pay all fines etc in one lump sum - how long do they usually give to pay? Otherwise I guess they go thru my income/expenditure breakdown and decide a payment plan for me.
Your income will be taken into consideration when a fine, if any, is imposed. If you are truly unable to pay it on one go then I expect that an 'installment plan' of sorts would be arranged. This may involve garnishment of any wages or benefits that you receive.
After all of that my next hurdle is that I work at a junior level in financial services, (but nothing to do with client money or advice). I hope to xxx they don't instantly fire me. If I cant work I cant pay the fines etc (hopefully the TOC/BTP and/or judge will appreciate that).
Depending on the law used to prosecute you there may be no record of the conviction, even if there is then it would be considered spent in a year.
 

DaveNewcastle

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If I understand it correctly, the next correspondence I will (most likely) receive will be the court summons - do I HAVE to attend? - and whether I attend or not, I will be fined, repay the fare, other extra bits to pay plus a criminal record. I am a first offender and have cooperated fully.
The Summons will give you the option to make your plea by post.
If you plea guilty by post, then the job for the Court will be to assess the level of fine and costs applied for (plus the courts charges for Victim Surcharge and Criminal Conviction).
If you plea Not Guilty, then a date will be set for a full hearing from both parties.
 

Stigy

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The outcome for you, if you are Not Guilty, will be the same whoever brings the prosecution against you.

The outcome for you if you are Guilty will be affected slightly by whoever brings the prosecution to Court. The chances are that the BTP will claim higher costs in their preparation of the proceedings against you than most of the in-house Railway Company prosecutions teams. But the fine, the damages (unpaid fares), the Victim Surcharge and the new Criminal Courts Charge will be the same, regardless of who brings the prosecution.
In my experience it's the other way around, BTP costs generally seem to be lower, however they have been known to recoup the cost in delay minutes as compensation to the railway if applicable.
 

ohsostupid

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Hi,

Just an update. I received a call from the BTP asking me to come, voluntarily, to the station for an interview under caution. I can bring someone or a solicitor with me or can use their duty solicitor.

I've already had the TOC interview under caution so I guess the BTP want to fill in any gaps.

Anyway, I am convinced, sometime after this BTP interview, that I will then receive a further letter taking me to court - i intend to plead guilty - to be convicted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion and ticket tampering (which I guess will be a fraud charge).

I work at a junior level in financial services and cannot afford to lose my job.

I'm hoping they will realise that losing my job is not constructive and would hinder me repaying the fines etc.

Will they have the option of convicting me under Byelaws so that it may lessen the chances of me losing my job but that I will still pay the same fines & costs?

I don't mind paying all the fines, costs etc I just don't want to lose my job.
 

ohsostupid

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and come out the other side?

Was there any impact to your work or any other aspect of life?

Mod note: This post plus a few responses have been merged into the original query pertaining to the same incident.
 
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Clip

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Most don't actually post back here once they have the info they require.
 

yorkie

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Most people who are threatened with prosecution and post here, seem to end up settling out of court. Also a significant number seem to be prosecuted under the Byelaws (despite ATOC advising TOCs not to do this), making them non-recordable offences.

I doubt there will be many here who can actually answer this question!

As for whether it would have an impact, it would very much depend on the job. Many jobs wouldn't require it to be disclosed.
 

furlong

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Just an update. I received a call from the BTP asking me to come, voluntarily, to the station for an interview under caution. I can bring someone or a solicitor with me or can use their duty solicitor.

With the police involved, depending on the full set of circumstances, it is possible that you might be offered a (Conditional) Caution as an alternative to prosecution.

I work at a junior level in financial services and cannot afford to lose my job.

This can work both ways. (E.g. It is especially important for society to be made aware of dishonesty involving people who hold positions of responsibility etc.)
 

island

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Anything is open to the BTP if you can be convincing enough.

Bear in mind that your terms and conditions of employment may require simple or conditional cautions to be declared.
 

cjmillsnun

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For most people in most lines of work, there will be little or no impact. It's only those lines of work that require an extended DBS check that this is likely to have an impact on.
 

najaB

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For most people in most lines of work, there will be little or no impact. It's only those lines of work that require an extended DBS check that this is likely to have an impact on.
Including/or jobs that involve working with money (in cash or electronic form) since a RoRA prosecution could be seen as a crime of dishonesty.
 

lejog

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and come out the other side?

Was there any impact to your work or any other aspect of life?

If you receive a fine, your conviction becomes "spent" IIRC after 1 year. Before this it will show up on a basic DBS check available to all employers.

After this you can quite legally respond to the question have you any convictions with the answer no. There is a seemingly long list of employers who can access more stringent DBS checks that will see spent convictions. However I would suggest few of these would care about a RoRa conviction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Including/or jobs that involve working with money (in cash or electronic form) since a RoRA prosecution could be seen as a crime of dishonesty.

Only employers on the Financial Services Register, ie regulated by the FCA can see spent convictions.
 

Stigy

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Most people who are threatened with prosecution and post here, seem to end up settling out of court. Also a significant number seem to be prosecuted under the Byelaws (despite ATOC advising TOCs not to do this), making them non-recordable offences.
I'm genuinely interested as to whether that was 'from the horses mouth' so to speak,as I've not heard this myself before. I have heard that Byelaws might soon be a thing of the past, or at least ticketing ones where people are seemingly being prosecuted willy nilly (they're not, but I can see how this might appear the case sometimes...)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you receive a fine, your conviction becomes "spent" IIRC after 1 year. Before this it will show up on a basic DBS check available to all employers.

After this you can quite legally respond to the question have you any convictions with the answer no. There is a seemingly long list of employers who can access more stringent DBS checks that will see spent convictions. However I would suggest few of these would care about a RoRa conviction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Only employers on the Financial Services Register, ie regulated by the FCA can see spent convictions.
It depends how the question is put to an applicant. A lot of employers are very specific as to whether you have been convicted of an offence within a set time, or whether it's classed as spent. They usually ask for unspent ones to be declared by default, with certain employers asking for everything within 5-years for certain roles, or 'ever' within other roles.
 

ohsostupid

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Thanks for your replies.

The situation now looks more likely to be a conviction under the Fraud Act.

Does anyone know what detail is shown on a conviction - in other words when someone does a DBS check, will it just say "Fraud Conviction" or will it say "Fraud Conviction for using an altered train ticket"?

And do the BTP usually advise a persons employer of the conviction (which happens to be a multi national financial servces firm - it just gets better :( )

N.B I shall be going through my contract to check if I need to declare any convictions.

P.S All I do at this company is print out reports that someone else has created.
 

Hannes

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Oh dear.

I'm not an expert, but I very much suspect you need to be seeking out paid legal advice at this stage.

Is there any chance you'd be willing to share details of exactly what you've been up to? That is, is a conviction of fraud highly likely?

I could be VERY wrong on this, but I believe there are instances when you need to declare if you've been prosecuted for fraud, even if you weren't convicted.
 

Mike395

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I have merged the two threads together that appear to pertain to the same incident, so people replying can see the context in which the question on the RoRA conviction is asked. :)
 

Llanigraham

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Thanks for your replies.

The situation now looks more likely to be a conviction under the Fraud Act.

Does anyone know what detail is shown on a conviction - in other words when someone does a DBS check, will it just say "Fraud Conviction" or will it say "Fraud Conviction for using an altered train ticket"?

And do the BTP usually advise a persons employer of the conviction (which happens to be a multi national financial servces firm - it just gets better :( )

N.B I shall be going through my contract to check if I need to declare any convictions.

P.S All I do at this company is print out reports that someone else has created.

The listings I have seen show a general description of the Offence, so just Fraud.
 
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