• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Diagrams

Status
Not open for further replies.

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Ok some may think I am crazy but in my spare time I've been trying to put together Northern's unit diagrams for the current timetable (Dec 14-May 15)... Some interesting little quirks when you look into them!

No doubt the project will throw up a load of questions that need answering, but one to start off with...
What goes out on 3T02 0457 Leeds-Hebden with the 153? (153 ends up there having started at Cleethorpes the previous day!). This would work 2T02 back, then the 0651 Leeds-Man Vic and 0826 return.
Whatever the 2nd unit is it works the 2126 Vic-Leeds the previous night to overnight in 10B with the 153 arriving at 0029 from Sheffield.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
1,072
3T02 is a 155 now arriving off 2126 Man Vic to Leeds the previous night. It then goes onto 0651 Man Vic
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
3T02 is a 155 now arriving off 2126 Man Vic to Leeds the previous night. It then goes onto 0651 Man Vic

Cheers, that makes sense as it then dumps the 153 when it gets back to Leeds, which appears to run off upto Holbeck until later when it joins up with a (150?) off the Knottingley circuit to go out to Goole and back
 

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
1,072
Now I didn't know that and where the 153 came from for the goole. I brought the 155 in last night off the Vic and the 153 off the Sheffield so over 2 nights I've brought 3T02 in
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Now I didn't know that and where the 153 came from for the goole. I brought the 155 in last night off the Vic and the 153 off the Sheffield so over 2 nights I've brought 3T02 in

Yeah it finishes up at Neville Hill after another trip to Knottingley on it's own
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Quick hint, everything to Stoke-on-Trent is a 323

Same for Hadfield/Glossop.

Crewe services are all booked as 323s except the daily Crewe-Bolton service.

The 07:15 Macclesfield-Manchester service is booked as a DMU working, all the other Northern services to Macclesfield are 323s.

I think everything to Alderley Edge services is booked as a 323s and almost everything to the Airport minus one or two evening services.

Everything to Hazel Grove is a DMU.
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Well it appears that Northern have 7 diagrams for 156's with TPE as one will swap each day with a unit off the Cumbrian Coast.
Works 2C30 0609 Millom-Barrow, 2C35 0651 Barrow-Carlisle, 2C42 0938 Carlisle-Lancaster then scurries off empty to Preston and joins the 1U67 1336 Blackpool North-Man Airport at 1407
Balancing working going the other way appears to be with TPE until 1N32 1310 Barrow-Lancaster, then Northern 2C39 1420 Lancaster-Barrow and onwards
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Well I spent 2 hours at Leeds on Tuesday afternoon peak working on diagrams etc and then went to Stevenage with a friend early on Wednesday from York. One question thrown up from my sightings....
144007 (front) arrived with 158845 (rear) from Neville Hill as 5N35 and worked 2N35 1748 Leeds-Sheffield (via Moorthorpe), which then returns as 2N38 at 1919, arriving in Leeds at 2034. This then works 2T98 at 2052 upto York, arriving 2130.
That would mean the 158 would be against the blocks at York (p6) and the 144 facing Leeds. Now this is where I get confused as 144007 was in York (p7) at 0545 on Wed (assuming it worked 3K89 to Selby). This means 158845 would have to have worked back to Leeds on its own as 2T95 (2213/2255) Tue night, which then joins with 2E67 (2126 Vic-Leeds) to go to Sheffield.
Is there a shunt move that doesn't appear on RTT? There are a few that do, interestingly.

Also, on a related note, does anyone know what the two 142's that work 5A55 > 2A55 Newcastle-Darlington > 5A55 Darlington-York work earlier in the day? I am assuming they must go upto Heaton around lunchtime?
 
Last edited:

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
1,072
Right here goes my little input into this not all this could be factually accurate but is my observations. 5N35/2N35 seems to be a random allocation of unit types each night not sure if it's just what they have or that It's planned because they need a 158 at Sheffield that night instead of a 144 for example. I'm pretty sure when it gets to Sheffield it splits so that would mean that the 144 comes back alone then goes up to York and 2213 back which I know is booked a 144. And as far as I know goes up to Neville Hill on a normal day if there is a concert or event on in Leeds it might be used to strengthen a service as in the post above.

As for 5/2A55 sometimes it can be the same 2 142s that go up earlier from York just go Heaton to be fueled
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
Scott, do you plan to publish your information as you go? I would be very grateful to see even the partial diagrams.
 

samj

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2008
Messages
174
Are there any double unit workings in the North East around Newcastle/Middlesbrough?
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Are there any double unit workings in the North East around Newcastle/Middlesbrough?

Mainly empty stock moves at the start and end of the day, but the 0626 Newcastle-Hexham and 0742 Hexham-Middlesbrough is booked as 2x 142. They split in Middlesbrough and one goes back, the other ends up on a Darlington-Saltburn diagram, which appears to replace a unit that's been away from depot for 2 days at that point (hence needs fuel/wash).
 

rg177

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
3,692
Location
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Mainly empty stock moves at the start and end of the day, but the 0626 Newcastle-Hexham and 0742 Hexham-Middlesbrough is booked as 2x 142. They split in Middlesbrough and one goes back, the other ends up on a Darlington-Saltburn diagram, which appears to replace a unit that's been away from depot for 2 days at that point (hence needs fuel/wash).

0742 off Hexham was a Single 142 on Friday. That explains why it was completely rammed on arriving at Newcastle...
 

03_179

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Messages
3,361
Location
Croydon
Ok some may think I am crazy but in my spare time I've been trying to put together Northern's unit diagrams for the current timetable (Dec 14-May 15)... Some interesting little quirks when you look into them!

No doubt the project will throw up a load of questions that need answering, but one to start off with...
What goes out on 3T02 0457 Leeds-Hebden with the 153? (153 ends up there having started at Cleethorpes the previous day!). This would work 2T02 back, then the 0651 Leeds-Man Vic and 0826 return.
Whatever the 2nd unit is it works the 2126 Vic-Leeds the previous night to overnight in 10B with the 153 arriving at 0029 from Sheffield.

I am do a little project at the moment, would you be willing the share the diagrams for the Hexham (also darlo/Newcastle) to/from Nunthorpe and the Middlesborough diagrams with me please?
 

glbotu

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2012
Messages
644
Location
Oxford
Are there any double unit workings in the North East around Newcastle/Middlesbrough?

I find unit allocations in the North East to be somewhat of a crapshoot. I've known the 0624 2A52 Saltburn - Newcastle to be single 142, double 142 and single 156 in about a 2:1:4 ratio. When it's a single 142, it's completely rammed from Durham.
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Can anyone confirm that the diesel unit at Skipton on a night is a 3 car 144?
Works (I believe) 0628 SHF-LDS, 0748 return, spare at Sheffield til 1330 York and back, 1726 SHF-DON, 1826 DON-SHF, 1929 SHF-DON, 2127 DON-LDS, 2226 LDS-SKI
Next day works 0541 SKI-LAN, 0707 LAN-LDS, upto Holbeck for refuel/clean, 1248 LDS-SHF, 1414 SHF-LDS, 1548 LDS-SHF, 1714 SHF-LDS, 1859 LDS-KNA then empty to Harrogate to stay the night there
 

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
1,072
its a 2 car 14X
The sets that do the 0748 Leeds to Sheffield split and one does 0914 back to Leeds and other does 0929 I believe which possibly leads into the 1330 to York

The 1248 Leeds to Sheffield comes off Neville Hill not Holbeck but could be correct for the others

The next day after that is ECS HGT to KNA. KNA to LDS. 0929 LDS to YRK via HGT and back
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Crewe services are all booked as 323s except the daily Crewe-Bolton service.

What time does the daily Crewe to Bolton service leave Crewe and does it go via Stockport or the Styal line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think everything to Alderley Edge services is booked as a 323s and almost everything to the Airport minus one or two evening services.

There are, of course, the Northern DMU operated Southport to Manchester Airport services.
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
its a 2 car 14X
The sets that do the 0748 Leeds to Sheffield split and one does 0914 back to Leeds and other does 0929 I believe which possibly leads into the 1330 to York

The 1248 Leeds to Sheffield comes off Neville Hill not Holbeck but could be correct for the others

The next day after that is ECS HGT to KNA. KNA to LDS. 0929 LDS to YRK via HGT and back

Cheers Adam, looking at photos that looks mostly right.
Only thing I know different is the 0915 Leeds and 0929 York work off the 0818 arrival from Adwick, not the Leeds one.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
What time does the daily Crewe to Bolton service leave Crewe and does it go via Stockport or the Styal line?

It's currently Crewe-Salford because of the Farnworth works: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y31575/2015/07/20/advanced

It was one of the services Northern didn't have enough 323s to cover once they enhanced the Stoke and Airport services. It originally terminated at Oxford Rd but finished up getting extended to a non-electrified destination - just like the 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove got extended to Chinley.

There are, of course, the Northern DMU operated Southport to Manchester Airport services.

I meant the Piccadilly-Airport stoppers. Although, as Northern are currently a 323 down the chance of a DMU appearing has increased.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
How does one write the results of the now famed Northern random unit generator into such an output document? ;)

The working formula for non-electrified ex-FNW routes is the below:

A = Non-electrified ex-FNW route (excluding Buxton and Ormskirk)
B = Unit type
C = Any diesel unit or combination of diesel units out of 142s, 150s or 156s
D = Any diesel unit or combination of diesel units out of 150s or 156s
E = Any diesel unit or combination of diesel units out of 142s, 150s, 153s or 156s
F = modern DMU
G = Buxton line service
H = Ormskirk line service
I = Non-Northern service

Where A = true:
B = C

Where G = true:
B = D

Where H = true:
B = E

If F = true:
I = true (Passengers and crews can look on in envy)

Now I'll just wait for someone from Northern to accuse me of hacking in to their computer system. ;)
 

Philip C

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
407
It originally terminated at Oxford Rd but finished up getting extended to a non-electrified destination - just like the 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove got extended to Chinley.

I had understood that this extension was done to better serve Chinley or in connection with improving Hope Valley stoppers or some other such reason. Your posting suggests that it was projected to reach a wire-free destination or perhaps just to get it out of the way.

I can understand an efficiency argument for joining up Crewe-Manchester diesel trains with diesel trains from Manchester north-westwards (terminal platform occupancy, turn-round time, through passenger benefits etc.) but don't understand where this fits with Manchester-HG-Chinley workings. Could you explain please?
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
I had understood that this extension was done to better serve Chinley or in connection with improving Hope Valley stoppers or some other such reason. Your posting suggests that it was projected to reach a wire-free destination or perhaps just to get it out of the way.

I can understand an efficiency argument for joining up Crewe-Manchester diesel trains with diesel trains from Manchester north-westwards (terminal platform occupancy, turn-round time, through passenger benefits etc.) but don't understand where this fits with Manchester-HG-Chinley workings. Could you explain please?

I just commented on it being done before someone suggests it can be switched to a 319 now. Both services were originally only DMUs because the 323s didn't stretch far enough but can't be switched to EMUs now because they've been extended to non-electrified destinations.

I'm pretty sure the actual reason for it being done was because a peak time South TPE service included a Chinley call and was rammed, so when Northern got the ex-LM 150s they were given responsibility for running an additional Manchester-Chinley service in the evening peak, to relieve pressure on South TPE.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Philip C

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
407
I just commented on it being done before someone suggests it can be switched to a 319 now. Both services were originally only DMUs because the 323s didn't stretch far enough but can't be switched to EMUs now because they've been extended to non-electrified destinations.

I'm pretty sure the actual reason for it being done was because a peak time South TPE service included a Chinley call and was rammed, so when Northern got the ex-LM 150s they were given responsibility for running an additional Manchester-Chinley service in the evening peak, to relieve pressure on South TPE.

Thanks for the clarification. :)
 

darloscott

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
772
Location
Stockton
Well I've completed my first (sub)class - the 158/3's I have 7 diagrams (for 8 units). 4 on Leeds-Man Vic and 3 York-Blackpool's. All seems to work nicely!
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Well I've completed my first (sub)class - the 158/3's I have 7 diagrams (for 8 units). 4 on Leeds-Man Vic and 3 York-Blackpool's. All seems to work nicely!
Please don't think I'm over pedantic, but they are referred to as 158/9s
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top