New ScotRail EMU's, Any more news?

[SC318250]

Any idea what new Class number is to be?

 

[D365]

Any idea what new Class number is to be?

Will be in the 7xx range, more likely than not.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've moved an interesting discussion about TOPS numbers for future EMUs into this thread. That leaves this thread clear to discuss developments around the new ScotRail EMU fleet.

 

[absolutelymilk]

There really doesn't seem to be much information on these trains being produced for ScotRail - despite currently being under construction I can't find out much about them! Does anyone know much about the detailed spec?

 

[380101]

There really doesn't seem to be much information on these trains being produced for ScotRail - despite currently being under construction I can't find out much about them! Does anyone know much about the detailed spec?

Basically going to be a Hitachi version of the Siemens 380. Cab layout will be the same - we have been shown a mock up picture of the cab interior in a drivers safety brief and it's pretty much identical to the 380. 100mph top speed. Body side cameras for DOO use in Strathclyde region. 1st class areas in the 4 car units.

 

[D365]

Basically going to be a Hitachi version of the Siemens 380.

I understand they'll be operated as separate fleets for at least the forseeable future, but I wonder why, for the sake of convenience and economy, the order did not end up as a follow-on to the Class 380. Siemens order books filled with their Desiro City?

 

[380101]

I understand they'll be operated as separate fleets for at least the forseeable future, but I wonder why, for the sake of convenience and economy, the order did not end up as a follow-on to the Class 380. Siemens order books filled with their Desiro City?

The rumour was that First planned to order more 380s had they retained the franchise. We were also initially told at an Abellio briefing prior to the franchise commencing that the Hitachi 385 would be fully compatible with the 380s. I now believe this will not be the case and they will only be able to be coupled together for rescue purposes only ie; drag the dead unit.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand they'll be operated as separate fleets for at least the forseeable future, but I wonder why, for the sake of convenience and economy, the order did not end up as a follow-on to the Class 380. Siemens order books filled with their Desiro City?

Presumably the new franchisee undertook a competitive procurement and the Hitachi offer was better and/or cheaper. Under EU procurement rules it's not possible for a body such as a TOC just to go to a single manufacturer unless it's an option on a previous order.

 

[swt_passenger]

Under EU procurement rules it's not possible for a body such as a TOC just to go to a single manufacturer unless it's an option on a previous order.

Yes they can. It is how FGW were able to negotiate the AT300 order without a public competition. The EU rules only apply to public organisations such as TfL or Merseyrail if they are doing the ordering.

If you follow the link to Stagecoach's latest bid for expressions of interest this is explained:

Additional information:

Please note that Stagecoach Rail Holdings Ltd or any of its subsidiaries are not a utility or a contracting authority for the purposes of Directives 2004/17/EC, 2014/24/EU or 2014/25/EU. This notice is published as a voluntary call for competition for publicity purposes only and not pursuant to the requirements of the above Directives. Reference in this notice to the ‘most economically advantageous tender’ or the ‘negotiated procedure’ or any other terminology should not be construed as implying the application of the relevant rules and jurisprudence of the above-mentioned Directives to the present procurement.

https://www.publictenders.net/node/3106847

IIRC the SWT 707 order was also a negotiated contract without competitive tender.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes they can. It is how FGW were able to negotiate the AT300 order without a public competition. The EU rules only apply to public organisations such as TfL or Merseyrail if they are doing the ordering.

If you follow the link to Stagecoach's latest bid for expressions of interest this is explained:



IIRC the SWT 707 order was also a negotiated contract without competitive tender.

Thank you, this is interesting. I understood it would be applicable to any body receiving significant amounts of public funding, but perhaps the franchise bidding process fulfils the need for open competition.

 

[najaB]

Thank you, this is interesting. I understood it would be applicable to any body receiving significant amounts of public funding, but perhaps the franchise bidding process fulfils the need for open competition.

Is the stock being bought by Scotrail or by the ROSCO that Scotrail leases from?

 

[Altnabreac]

Is the stock being bought by Scotrail or by the ROSCO that Scotrail leases from?

I believe its a hybrid lease where there is a guarenteed 25 year usage by Scottish Ministers with an option to buy the fleet for £1 after that (so with a 35 year design life you get 10 years free).

The lease is not with a ROSCO but with a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) called Caledonian Rail Leasing set up by SMBC leasing who are a Japanese finance house. I presume therefore the finance side of the deal was arranged by Hitachi as part of their offer to Abellio.

As there is no ROSCO the maintenance and overhaul will all be done by the manufacturer.

 

[najaB]

The lease is not with a ROSCO but with a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) called Caledonian Rail Leasing set up by SMBC leasing who are a Japanese finance house.

Thanks. I think that answers edwin_m's question as the lease arrangements probably formed part of Abellio's bid in the tendering process.

 

[WatcherZero]

Think of it less like leasing more like Mortgaging. They aren't just renting they are repaying the equity as well.

 

[43096]

Yes they can. It is how FGW were able to negotiate the AT300 order without a public competition. The EU rules only apply to public organisations such as TfL or Merseyrail if they are doing the ordering.

Public sector organisations can also do so in certain circumstances. Following the Fyra fiasco in the Netherlands, NS (publicly owned) were able to order a batch of TRAXX multi-system electric locos from Bombardier without going through the OJEU process. The reason being that it was an urgent requirement, and they already had a batch of such locos in service so would not need a drawn out additional testing process.