TOPS number allocations for future EMUs

[Carntyne]

Mod Note: This thread has been split from a discussion here about the future ScotRail EMUs. I have included a few quotes to provide the context that led up to this post.

Any idea what new Class number is to be?

Will be in the 7xx range, more likely than not.

It'll be a 3XX, though still not decided what the XX will be. Sure we'll hear soon though.

 

[swt_passenger]

It'll be a 3XX, though still not decided what the XX will be. Sure we'll hear soon though.

Why wouldn't it be a 7XX though?

 

[158722]

Why wouldn't it be a 7XX though?

Aren't 7xx for dual voltage, 8xx for bi-mode E/D with 3xx being retained for pure AC and 4xx for pure DC?

No plans for mass renumberings to 713s, 719s, 765s, 777s, etc?!

 

[Haydn1971]

Aren't 7xx for dual voltage, 8xx for bi-mode E/D with 3xx being retained for pure AC and 4xx for pure DC?

No, 700 series are new ac/dc electric multiple units, 800 series is for high speed multiple units.

What a new bi-mode 100mph unit would be is anyone's guess - 600 series ???

 

[swt_passenger]

What a new bi-mode 100mph unit would be is anyone's guess - 600 series ???

600-699 seems to be allocated to DMUs that are not 'high speed' (where high speed is greater than 190 km/h), there is no specific range for bi-modes in the group standard.

I suppose they could just go in the existing diesel electric MU 200-299 possibly, there's loads of spare numbers...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No plans for mass renumberings to 713s, 719s, 765s, 777s, etc?!

They wouldn't because then they'll just move the problem of running out of class numbers from 3xx to 7xx. The new sequences are only being introduced in order to make more class numbers available.

 

[MCR247]

Aren't 7xx for dual voltage, 8xx for bi-mode E/D with 3xx being retained for pure AC and 4xx for pure DC?

No plans for mass renumberings to 713s, 719s, 765s, 777s, etc?!

7xx is for AC/Dual voltage, with 4xx for DC only (not that I think any new 4xx will be built)

 

[southern442]

If it was down to me, I would fill all of the gaps in the EMU section (i.e. 326-331, 335-350, 351-356 etc.) before using the 7xx. It does seem to be a random process though, as there are some new classes (like the 374's and 345's) in the older section, but some (700, 707 etc.) in the new ones. Why is this? Not to mention the other possibilities with this system, such as putting dual-voltage units in the 4xx series (why not, especially as some 3xx units are 3rd rail only) and the fact that there is LOADS of room in the 5xx series for new build units (all the spaces from 509 onwards are free).

 

[XCTurbostar]

If the 7xx series are for AC/Dual Voltage.. Why are the 707s for SWT going into that series. Their 3rd Rail Only.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Wolfie]

If the 7xx series are for AC/Dual Voltage.. Why are the 707s for SWT going into that series. Their 3rd Rail Only.

Thanks,
Ross

For sure they will be AC capable even if not enabled. May also be because there has been, and is still, talk of progressive replacement, as assets become due for replacement, of 3rd rail with OHE....

 

[southern442]

If the 7xx series are for AC/Dual Voltage.. Why are the 707s for SWT going into that series. Their 3rd Rail Only.

Thanks,
Ross

It is all very strange. The class 707 should be class 407, the class 345 should be 745, and the class 374 (the new Eurostar trains) should be in the 8xx series. Is there a reason behind this logic or is it just a random numbering system?

'what should we call the new Crossrail order?'

'I'm feeling 345 personally'

'yeah, ok, 345 it is'

 

[MCR247]

The class 707 is right where it is, it shouldn't be 407. Class 345 has historically always been the crossrail stock (I believe there was an artists impression of a class 345 'networker' variant for crossrail....). Class 374 is probably just because the current eurostars are class 373.

 

[D365]

'what should we call the new Crossrail order?'

'I'm feeling 345 personally'

'yeah, ok, 345 it is'

Class 345 (and before that, Class 341) has existed since before Crossrail had even been approved. Such conversation must've taken place at least ten years ago, long before it was decided to open up the 7xx or 8xx ranges

 

[southern442]

The class 707 is right where it is, it shouldn't be 407. Class 345 has historically always been the crossrail stock (I believe there was an artists impression of a class 345 'networker' variant for crossrail....). Class 374 is probably just because the current eurostars are class 373.

I see from an above post that the 707 trains are likely to have AC capability, so it seems that you are correct, it should be in the 7xx range.

 

[D365]

I see from an above post that the 707 trains are likely to have AC capability, so it seems that you are correct, it should be in the 7xx range.

Definitely they will be capable, in fact they are likely to be fitted with 25kV AC equipment out-of-the-box?

 

[swt_passenger]

Definitely they will be capable, in fact they are likely to be fitted with 25kV AC equipment out-of-the-box?

Someone has said that two will be delivered with the full AC equipment for acceptance trials, which will then be removed. The full class will be delivered with the capability to add AC specific equipment, e.g. pantograph and Transformer etc.

So the same as the 444 and 450 basically, which should have been numbered somewhere in the 300 series originally, as they are just as much of an AC/DC unit as a DC only Electrostar.

 

[D365]

Someone has said that two will be delivered with the full AC equipment for acceptance trials, which will then be removed. The full class will be delivered with the capability to add AC specific equipment, e.g. pantograph and Transformer etc.

Oh I see, what I'd heard was that Angel Trains had requested AC equipment to be fully fitted because the initial lease term is very short - only until the SWT franchise end in 2019. But I can't see why the fleet might be moved elsewhere.

 

[158722]

It is all very strange. The class 707 should be class 407, the class 345 should be 745, and the class 374 (the new Eurostar trains) should be in the 8xx series. Is there a reason behind this logic or is it just a random numbering system?

'what should we call the new Crossrail order?'

'I'm feeling 345 personally'

'yeah, ok, 345 it is'

Aren't the CrossRail units to be AC only, hence 345 is correct?

Now what about the new LOROL order however? Some to be AC only, with a batch of 14 dual voltage ones for Euston-Watford & GOBLIN?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't the CrossRail units to be AC only, hence 345 is correct?

Yes, but the point is that they (Crossrail) had already reserved the 345 number range before the railway group standard was amended to newly introduce the additional classes in the 600, 700, and 800 ranges, because space was running out.

So these numbering decisions are not right or wrong, they are just different, because time marches on and the goalposts get moved...

 

[edwin_m]

Aren't the CrossRail units to be AC only, hence 345 is correct?

I believe they have some sort of provision for DC operation if the route ever extends beyond Abbey Wood.

 

[Domh245]

I believe they have some sort of provision for DC operation if the route ever extends beyond Abbey Wood.

Would that not just be a case of the main bus, and the associated electronics fed from it being rated for 750V DC, which seems to be the standard bus voltage used in other modern EMUs (primarily for the sake of not having to have awkward inverter>transformer>rectifier setups from the shoegear on DC untis)

 

[Stats]

Aren't the CrossRail units to be AC only, hence 345 is correct?

Now what about the new LOROL order however? Some to be AC only, with a batch of 14 dual voltage ones for Euston-Watford & GOBLIN?!

Both the 3xx and 7xx series are for ac and ac/dc multiple units so you can place them in either. why 3xx series has being explained. Likewise, the new LO units* fit this category and so will be 7xx series

* LOROL doesn't have an order, being only the concession operator.

 

[edwin_m]

Would that not just be a case of the main bus, and the associated electronics fed from it being rated for 750V DC, which seems to be the standard bus voltage used in other modern EMUs (primarily for the sake of not having to have awkward inverter>transformer>rectifier setups from the shoegear on DC untis)

There was something in the spec about being convertible to DC if necessary, although it was a few years ago when I was involved so it might have changed. I think this would include the design allowing for shoegear and connections to the DC bus to be added later, and some parts of this might actually be included if adding them later would be difficult. Shoegear in particular might be a bit tricky as I think the Aventras have inside bearing bogies so there's nothing obvious to attach it to.

 

[D365]

The Crossrail 345 will have provision for 750V DC, that much hasn't changed. Indeed, LO will require a dual-voltage capability from the Class 710s on order (the 14 units to be based at Willesden), whilst Crossrail 2 will require a dual-voltage fleet for at least the mid-term future.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would that not just be a case of the main bus, and the associated electronics fed from it being rated for 750V DC, which seems to be the standard bus voltage used in other modern EMUs (primarily for the sake of not having to have awkward inverter>transformer>rectifier setups from the shoegear on DC untis)

I think the DC Bus can run at different voltages. If you think of it in terms of a power transfer, it will just need to draw a higher current at the third rail voltage than when the DC is coming from the transformer/rectifier. Both cases do not occur together so as long as the traction converter can deal with the variation you'd be OK. It's also worth remembering that the '750V DC' system is only a nominal figure, it can swing quite a bit either side of that, up to around 850-900V IIRC.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shoegear in particular might be a bit tricky as I think the Aventras have inside bearing bogies so there's nothing obvious to attach it to.

Desiro City has the shoe gear connected to the bogie structure between the wheels, with no shoebeam. Problem solved.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Beware of looking for patterns or logic in TOPS... This way, madness lies!

 

[edwin_m]

Desiro City has the shoe gear connected to the bogie structure between the wheels, with no shoebeam. Problem solved.

Seems reasonable and I presume the provision for Crossrail would be to provide the same as they are doing on the Overground units. They just need to make sure some kind of attachment is included in the Crossrail bogie design.

 

[southern442]

I still don't see why the 92 free spaces in the 5xx series aren't being used.

 

[swt_passenger]

I still don't see why the 92 free spaces in the 5xx series aren't being used.

Might they be in use as 5 digit individual vehicle numbers? The same amendments to the RSL scheme also introduced the 6 digit vehicle number as carried by the latest new classes.

 

[jopsuk]

the Electrostars are a total mess, number wise:

Don't get why the LTS ones were given "357". That seems to have been arbitrary.
Then the SE ones got "375", swapping the last two digits. Class 376 followed on from there. 377 for the Southern ones, which are basically the same as 375s, was just being awkward. 378s took the next number, but are a development (ish) of the 376. 379s are an AC-only version of the later 377s*. "387" is a realisation that they'd painted themselves into a corner in the 37x series given that Eurostar had taken 374, being a 110mph-certified version of the later series 377s.


Really, Class 375, 377 & 387 could be considered one class. Class 379 could even be included in that.

*how difficult would turning the 379s dual voltage be?