Trespass Incident - Impressed with c2C Driver

[Essexman]

The C2C train I was on this morning slowed then stopped outside Elm Park station. After a while the driver announced that there was a young lady walking on the track and he'd tried to get her to get into the cab but she wouldn't, so we would be delayed to make sure she was safe. Tubes were also stopped and presumably the current turned off. We moved forward at walking pace and eventually two men (passengers?) who appeared to have walked from Elm Park platform caught up with her and restrained her. She was clearly distressed and a potential tragic outcome had been avoided.

We often hear of delays due to trespass but it is rare for passengers to see what is happening and the efforts made to keep the person safe.

 

[tsr]

I should imagine if the two men looked like passengers they were probably either Land Sheriffs (security guards employed by Network Rail - not sure if they work on the c2c routes - who spend a lot of time dealing with trespass and suicide attempts) who for some unusual reason weren't wearing their orange hi-vis clothing, or else plain-clothes police who had already had confirmation of the line being blocked to traffic. I shouldn't imagine "ordinary" passengers would get very far down the track without being detained themselves for trespassing and wouldn't be obliged or necessary able to help restrain a mentally distressed passenger, let alone trained in railway safety matters.

I'm glad to hear the c2c driver responded well and hopefully you've sent an email in to Customer Services to see if they can be thanked!

 

[Quakkerillo]

About a month ago, a very similar thing happened at Bury St Edmunds.
A Peterborough - Ipswich train I was on slowed down - not remarkably fast - due to an elderly lady being completely confused walking on the track just outside of the station, waving to the train driver.
Driver shouted to her to get off the track, but got no response. Passengers on the platform hadn't noticed her, until the driver was shouting. Two men then grabbed her, and pulled her off the track.
BTP came, train driver was in shock, so train was driven onto a siding, and we had to get onto a subsequent service.

AGA was very clear and open about the situation, and all the available employees at the station came out to help. BTP was there within 5 minutes as well, so it was all dealt with nicely and professional.

 

[chris11256]

The C2C train I was on this morning slowed then stopped outside Elm Park station. After a while the driver announced that there was a young lady walking on the track and he'd tried to get her to get into the cab but she wouldn't, so we would be delayed to make sure she was safe. Tubes were also stopped and presumably the current turned off. We moved forward at walking pace and eventually two men (passengers?) who appeared to have walked from Elm Park platform caught up with her and restrained her. She was clearly distressed and a potential tragic outcome had been avoided.

We often hear of delays due to trespass but it is rare for passengers to see what is happening and the efforts made to keep the person safe.

Incidents on that part of the line tend to happen a bit too frequently. Good to hear about the driver. Make sure you email or tweet c2c. They'll ensure the positive feedback is passed on.

 

[Essexman]

I think it had only just happened so may well have been too soon for BTP or security to arrive. And if this is the case there may not have been anyone to detain any helpers for trespass. Obviously there is no obligation for the public to help but some people will try to help others in distress, even if it puts them at some risk.

And yes I've sent an email to C2C.

 

[chris11256]

I like to think that fellow travellers would help someone in distress. I remember reading a news article recently about a man who stopped someone jumping off a bridge by just talking to them.

 

[Antman]

I should imagine if the two men looked like passengers they were probably either Land Sheriffs (security guards employed by Network Rail - not sure if they work on the c2c routes - who spend a lot of time dealing with trespass and suicide attempts) who for some unusual reason weren't wearing their orange hi-vis clothing, or else plain-clothes police who had already had confirmation of the line being blocked to traffic. I shouldn't imagine "ordinary" passengers would get very far down the track without being detained themselves for trespassing and wouldn't be obliged or necessary able to help restrain a mentally distressed passenger, let alone trained in railway safety matters.

I'm glad to hear the c2c driver responded well and hopefully you've sent an email in to Customer Services to see if they can be thanked!

It would appear that they were members of the public and all credit to them, in a situation like that the rule book goes out of the window and common sense takes over.

 

[tsr]

No, the rule book is designed to deal with exactly such situations. Copious training is given to railway staff for dealing with emergencies both in rule book theory and in practice and this often prevents a bad situation getting worse. It is actually pretty rare and highly risky for two randomly selected passengers to go for a walk down a busy mainline and for them to be doing so in order to restrain a distressed person is most unlikely to happen or be successful. However there are also a lot of police officers travelling to/from work on trains, and on-call staff do often react at very short notice to incidents on busy urban commuter routes, so either of those could be a valid explanation and what I suspect happened.

 

[carriageline]

It would appear that they were members of the public and all credit to them, in a situation like that the rule book goes out of the window and common sense takes over.

Yeah, fantastic until someone gets hit by a train. Look at the situation in kent when an elderly gentlemen got stuck by a train trying to help a lady get back on the platform. Leave it to the professionals.

PS, your obviously not rail staff. The rule book never goes out the window....

 

[SPADTrap]

in a situation like that the rule book goes out of the window and common sense takes over.

You mean the rule book comes into play in those situations, right? Its there for just that and it is written in blood, often of those who 'threw it out the window'.

 

[hibtastic]

Same happened to me last week, I got to Inverkeithing station as usual in time for the first train to Edinburgh and unusually the Fife Circle 68+Mark2 train was sitting in the opposite platform with the driver on the phone.

Train arrived and we left only to stop half way across the Forth Bridge. Apparently someone was trespassing on the bridge which stopped all trains in the area. Staff kept us well informed and I believe the person was coaxed off the bridge to safety.

I still missed my connection to Carlisle though but these things happen.

 

[Antman]

Yeah, fantastic until someone gets hit by a train. Look at the situation in kent when an elderly gentlemen got stuck by a train trying to help a lady get back on the platform. Leave it to the professionals.

PS, your obviously not rail staff. The rule book never goes out the window....

Well it does with non railway staff, graffiti merchants for example.

There cannot be a rule for every situation.

And what professionals should the man at Chartham have left it to? Isn't it an unstaffed station?

 

[alxndr]

Well it does with non railway staff, graffiti merchants for example.

There cannot be a rule for every situation.

Surely non-railway staff are not governed by the railway rule books? They're there for railway personnel, I'd expect the public to abide by the law and common sense but not know the ins and outs of railway rules. Trespassers abide by nothing, and when caught get punished for it.

Wandering around on a live railway to attempt to save another is noble, but could end very badly, and goes against the first rule any first aid/emergency training course will drum into you, "never put yourself in danger, one casualty is always better than two."

 

[Antman]

Surely non-railway staff are not governed by the railway rule books? They're there for railway personnel, I'd expect the public to abide by the law and common sense but not know the ins and outs of railway rules. Trespassers abide by nothing, and when caught get punished for it.

Wandering around on a live railway to attempt to save another is noble, but could end very badly, and goes against the first rule any first aid/emergency training course will drum into you, "never put yourself in danger, one casualty is always better than two."

Unless somebody knows exactly what happened at Elm Park I don't think there is much point in speculating further

 

[carriageline]

Surely non-railway staff are not governed by the railway rule books? They're there for railway personnel, I'd expect the public to abide by the law and common sense but not know the ins and outs of railway rules. Trespassers abide by nothing, and when caught get punished for it.



Wandering around on a live railway to attempt to save another is noble, but could end very badly, and goes against the first rule any first aid/emergency training course will drum into you, "never put yourself in danger, one casualty is always better than two."

Precisely the point I was trying to make. I would never support punishing someone for doing something like that, but I certainly don't support people doing it, in fact I'm completely against it.

Even if I was at a station I controlled, and someone walked off the ramp for whatever reason, the very last thing I would do is go after them for a whole array of reasons.The first thought would be get trains stopped and the juice off, so first call is tell the station staff, and/or use an SPT.

Unfortunately I don't know chartham, but even then, even if no staff are around there are much better ways than walking trackside. Heck, even phoning 999/contacting the NR helpline would be more useful than that.

 

[Antman]

Precisely the point I was trying to make. I would never support punishing someone for doing something like that, but I certainly don't support people doing it, in fact I'm completely against it.

Even if I was at a station I controlled, and someone walked off the ramp for whatever reason, the very last thing I would do is go after them for a whole array of reasons.The first thought would be get trains stopped and the juice off, so first call is tell the station staff, and/or use an SPT.

Unfortunately I don't know chartham, but even then, even if no staff are around there are much better ways than walking trackside. Heck, even phoning 999/contacting the NR helpline would be more useful than that.

Heck, as I understand it the train was approaching and a woman was on the track at Chartham so he obviously had no time to call anybody.

 

[tsr]

Heck, as I understand it the train was approaching and a woman was on the track at Chartham so he obviously had no time to call anybody.

Which obviously meant he was in mortal danger when going on the line and created two casualties vice one. Which I think shows quite adequately that it's not always a very good idea to decide not to follow the rules -and certainly not to think you are going to be able to save somebody else by going on a railway on which trains may still run, when not trained to do so.

 

[Antman]

Which obviously meant he was in mortal danger when going on the line and created two casualties vice one. Which I think shows quite adequately that it's not always a very good idea to decide not to follow the rules -and certainly not to think you are going to be able to save somebody else by going on a railway on which trains may still run, when not trained to do so.

Easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight.

So what would you have done in the circumstances? I suspect like most of us you would have taken what you thought was the best course of action under the circumstances

 

[tsr]

Easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight.

So what would you have done in the circumstances? I suspect like most of us you would have taken what you thought was the best course of action under the circumstances

It all starts with stopping nearby trains and getting a line block... And yes that is what I do in emergencies where applicable...

 

[Antman]

It all starts with stopping nearby trains and getting a line block... And yes that is what I do in emergencies where applicable...

Which is fine when there is time to do that, but many emergency situations (and not just on the railway) require immediate action

 

[Llanigraham]

Which is fine when there is time to do that, but many emergency situations (and not just on the railway) require immediate action

And the railway has an inbuilt system where that can be done, as long as the signallers are told. :roll:

 

[Antman]

And the railway has an inbuilt system where that can be done, as long as the signallers are told. :roll:

A person on the track and a train approaching as in the Chartham incident, no time to tell signallers or anybody else. Take action or do nothing, your call:roll:

 

[carriageline]

A person on the track and a train approaching as in the Chartham incident, no time to tell signallers or anybody else. Take action or do nothing, your call:roll:

Even waving a light at the driver is better than risking your life. Not being funny, but someone very sadly died. For me, that is a monumental example of what can, and does go wrong when you take stupid action. Fair enough, do what you can to save a life. But there comes a point where the risk to your own life is too great.

In my eyes, I wouldn't risk my life to save a strangers. Even more so if danger is imminent. I would rather use my skills and experience to stop trains, or if the worse happens, then contact the signaller and help the driver. Rather all, I'm much more use dead than alive in that situation.

 

[alxndr]

Even waving a light at the driver is better than risking your life. Not being funny, but someone very sadly died. For me, that is a monumental example of what can, and does go wrong when you take stupid action. Fair enough, do what you can to save a life. But there comes a point where the risk to your own life is too great.

In my eyes, I wouldn't risk my life to save a strangers. Even more so if danger is imminent. I would rather use my skills and experience to stop trains, or if the worse happens, then contact the signaller and help the driver. Rather all, I'm much more use dead than alive in that situation.

Hear hear.

Furthermore, you don't know what mindset that person is on the tracks, or what their intent is. You chasing after them could very well be the thing which causes them to panic and run into the path of an oncoming train/touch the third rail. Leave going onto the live railway to the professionals and do what you can from a position of safety.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely what we're discussing comes down to a personal decision rather than there being a right or wrong answer? Some people feel that they would put themselves at risk to try and save another others that they wouldn't and would try to do something else to effect a positive outcome.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this? There isn't really a right or wrong answer here.

 

[Robertj21a]

. Even more so if danger is imminent. I would rather use my skills and experience to stop trains, or if the worse happens, then contact the signaller and help the driver. Rather all, I'm much more use dead than alive in that situation.

Did you really mean to say that you are much more use dead than alive ?

:roll:

 

[SPADTrap]

Surely what we're discussing comes down to a personal decision rather than there being a right or wrong answer? Some people feel that they would put themselves at risk to try and save another others that they wouldn't and would try to do something else to effect a positive outcome.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this? There isn't really a right or wrong answer here.

There is a right a wrong answer for rail staff that much is certain..

 

[Antman]

Surely what we're discussing comes down to a personal decision rather than there being a right or wrong answer? Some people feel that they would put themselves at risk to try and save another others that they wouldn't and would try to do something else to effect a positive outcome.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this? There isn't really a right or wrong answer here.

I couldn't have summed it up better. I don't know what I would do in a situation like that and I never will unless it occurs, as you say there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Domh245]

In my opinion, the correct thing to do is the one which will result in fewest casualties. Going onto the track without the correct procedures in place, even if you are a trained professional, could lead to 2 casualties. Informing someone in a position of responsibility (by which I mean someone who can arrange for trains to be stopped, power off, protection put in place etc) then there could only be 1 casualty. It may seem a bit callous, but you should always think about the worst case scenario, and remember that whilst 1 fatality is bad, 2 is twice as bad!

 

[Antman]

Even waving a light at the driver is better than risking your life. Not being funny, but someone very sadly died. For me, that is a monumental example of what can, and does go wrong when you take stupid action. Fair enough, do what you can to save a life. But there comes a point where the risk to your own life is too great.

In my eyes, I wouldn't risk my life to save a strangers. Even more so if danger is imminent. I would rather use my skills and experience to stop trains, or if the worse happens, then contact the signaller and help the driver. Rather all, I'm much more use dead than alive in that situation.

I think you might want to edit your last sentence