Tickets Valid for Kings X to Moorgate/Old Street Easement?

[westv]

Exactly which tickets into Kings X are valid for this easement. I expect that print at home and e tickets aren't but what about TOC specific tickets? A few years ago I had a Stamford (Lincs) to Kings X season ticket and that didn't work the LU barriers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Any ticket that's valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals is valid on the Picc/Vic between Finsbury Park and King's Cross St. Pancras (and also to Highbury & Islington); and also on the sub-surface lines and Northern Line between King's Cross St. Pancras and Moorgate (and also to Old Street).

It's not entirely surprising they don't work LU barriers, however.

 

[westv]

Any ticket that's valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals is valid on the Picc/Vic between Finsbury Park and King's Cross St. Pancras (and also to Highbury & Islington); and also on the sub-surface lines and Northern Line between King's Cross St. Pancras and Moorgate (and also to Old Street).

It's not entirely surprising they don't work LU barriers, however.

I'm talking about the long time Circle/Metro/H&S/Nth line easement.

 

[bb21]

Is this not what you were thinking of, or is there some other easement I am not aware of?

and also on the sub-surface lines and Northern Line between King's Cross St. Pancras and Moorgate (and also to Old Street).

 

[Haywain]

Any ticket that's valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals is valid on the Picc/Vic between Finsbury Park and King's Cross St. Pancras (and also to Highbury & Islington); and also on the sub-surface lines and Northern Line between King's Cross St. Pancras and Moorgate (and also to Old Street).

But not valid to/from intermediate stations between those named above. And it isn't an easement, it is just normal validity which applies to all tickets issued to London Terminals, with appropriate routeing. I do not believe that it can be argued as extending to staff passes, or to tickets which are restricted to any specific TOC (ie Grand Central only).

 

[westv]

What does "with appropriate routing" mean?

 

[swt_passenger]

What does "with appropriate routing" mean?

I think he just means that Moorgate must be an appropriate 'London Terminal' for the specific origin. In other words it isn't valid from (say) West Hampstead...

 

[Aictos]

But not valid to/from intermediate stations between those named above. And it isn't an easement, it is just normal validity which applies to all tickets issued to London Terminals, with appropriate routeing. I do not believe that it can be argued as extending to staff passes, or to tickets which are restricted to any specific TOC (ie Grand Central only).

I've highlighted in bold the area I believe is a grey area, example sometimes for staff it's better to do Finsbury Park to Kings Cross via the Victoria line now as a Govia staff pass would be valid for Finsbury Park to Kings Cross/Moorgate so if someone wanted to change at Finsbury Park and use the Victoria Line for the leg into Kings Cross then as the pass ought to be valid it ought to be okay to use, same applies for Moorgate/Kings Cross to London Bridge on the Northern Line depending on who you speak to it's either a case of yes it's fine or no it's not.

 

[causton]

And then you'll be saying that it should be used on South West Trains as they run from Clapham Junction to Portsmouth as SN do, or VT as they run from London to Crewe like London Midland do...

I can see where a normal ticket would work as it is X to Y but I could not see, unless there is local agreement, as a ticket specifically stating "Valid anywhere TOC X, Y and Z go" would be accepted on the Underground. Your mileage and friendly staff may vary though!

 

[westv]

I thoought it was an easement but my error. I assumed use of LU on normal rail tickets was an easement.
Only reason I ask is that currently I do Kings X to Aldgate using Oyster but the company I work for will be moving and Kings X to Moorgate will be an option.
However, as I use Hull Trains Ap tickets going into London I don't think it'll be an option seeing as they are that TOC only.

 

[Aictos]

And then you'll be saying that it should be used on South West Trains as they run from Clapham Junction to Portsmouth as SN do, or VT as they run from London to Crewe like London Midland do...

I can see where a normal ticket would work as it is X to Y but I could not see, unless there is local agreement, as a ticket specifically stating "Valid anywhere TOC X, Y and Z go" would be accepted on the Underground. Your mileage and friendly staff may vary though!

I'm not saying the above examples ought to be use, just a number of times I've been told by colleagues that there's a local agreement for GTR staff to use the Northern Line between Moorgate and Kings Cross however depending on which LUL staff you speak to....It varies from actually existing to not being a agreement at all etc

 

[westv]

It is a valid agreement and covers the lines I mentioned earlier (Circle, Met, HandC and North). But I did 't intend the thread to be yet another discussion about its existence rather it was a query about ticket types accepted.

 

[maniacmartin]

I understand this not being valid on a ticket routed East Coast Only, but what about 'EC & Connections'. My guess is the LU part could be '& Connections' here.

 

[Haywain]

I understand this not being valid on a ticket routed East Coast Only, but what about 'EC & Connections'. My guess is the LU part could be '& Connections' here.

Indeed.

 

[Hadders]

I passed through Kings Cross St Pancras Underground Station earlier this evening and noticed the attached poster about London Terminals ticket acceptance.

Sigh... You'd think someone might know the rules...

London Underground
Tickets marked to 'London Terminals', tickets from stations south of Blackfriars, and Great Northern tickets are not valid for travel on London Underground from this station

 

[jon0844]

Oh dear.

In reality, I've never had problems and always been let through without fail - but someone put that poster up!

 

[Hadders]

I'll be passing through Kings Cross St Pancras again later today so if that poster's still there I might have a word.

I'll be using a travelcard so I won't be able to test it out myself, unfortunately.

 

[34D]

I thoought it was an easement but my error. I assumed use of LU on normal rail tickets was an easement.
Only reason I ask is that currently I do Kings X to Aldgate using Oyster but the company I work for will be moving and Kings X to Moorgate will be an option.
However, as I use Hull Trains Ap tickets going into London I don't think it'll be an option seeing as they are that TOC only.

I suggest the critical factor is whether the destination on the ticket is London Terminals or just London Kings Cross.

I had it confirmed as valid on an EC advance ticket.

 

[Hadders]

An update.

I've just passed through Kings Cross St Pancras and the poster was still on display. I asked the member of staff who said it's not valid, I told him it was a long standing inter-available route and he told me it used to be valid, but it was removed and if National Rail say it's valid they are incorrect.

I asked to speak to a supervisor who was extremely knowledgable and confirmed the existence of the inter-available route. He did say it might go when trains start running through all day from Finsbury Park to Moorgate. As to the poster it seems to be cock-up rather than conspiracy.

I do wonder how many people end up paying more than they need to because of poor stFf training. If this was a financial institution there would be howls of protest about mis-selling and demands for compensation.

 

[jon0844]

I did wonder if the plan to run trains late at night and weekends into Moorgate would change this, leaving acceptance only for times of disruption.

Is it this December that trains will run at weekends or next?

 

[yorkie]

An update.

I've just passed through Kings Cross St Pancras and the poster was still on display. I asked the member of staff who said it's not valid, I told him it was a long standing inter-available route and he told me it used to be valid, but it was removed and if National Rail say it's valid they are incorrect.

I wish I could get £30k pa and make up my own rules with impunity

(I mean absolutely no disrespect to the excellent CSAs out there, but let's be honest, those of you who are excellent CSAs don't stay in that position)

I asked to speak to a supervisor who was extremely knowledgable and confirmed the existence of the inter-available route. He did say it might go when trains start running through all day from Finsbury Park to Moorgate.

Glad to hear the supervisor at KGX is clued-up. Sadly one of the supervisors at Liverpool Street wasn't, and was happy for his staff to deny that a walk to Moorgate would be a good solution for a London Terminals to Hatfield customer. Luckily for them I never got round to making a complaint. They won't be so lucky next time.

As to the poster it seems to be cock-up rather than conspiracy.

I do wonder how many people end up paying more than they need to because of poor stFf training. If this was a financial institution there would be howls of protest about mis-selling and demands for compensation.

Indeed. But we have no effective ombudsman or regulator with any teeth. The railway industry is over-charging people constantly and denying people rights in certain situations which I'm aware of. Nothing is ever done about it. If any journalists want some good stories in terms of passengers being denied rights or fares to which they're entitled, I know of a few....

 

[Hadders]

I did wonder if the plan to run trains late at night and weekends into Moorgate would change this, leaving acceptance only for times of disruption.

Is it this December that trains will run at weekends or next?

Let's hope not. I guess one of the reasons for the inter-availability was also to account for the closure of the hotel curve in the 1970's which wuld have allowd anyone arriving at Kings Cross to carry onto Moorgate.

This won't be solved by the Northern City Line running late evenings and weekends as you'd have to double back to Finsbury park on longer distance trains that don't stop at Finsbury.

 

[jon0844]

Hopefully it won't be worth the hassle. It's a useful easement, but not one that could be considered a loophole (IMO) or gives anyone a financial advantage to encourage them to travel on the tube instead of a normal train (if it's running).

For people using GTR, it's normally quicker and easier to just get a train into Moorgate from Finsbury Park or Highbury & Islington - even if you need to swap train at FPK because you came on a service going to King's Cross. Simply because you save on a potentially long walk at King's Cross depending on where your train comes in, as well as the chance that the trains might be very busy at some times of the day. (It's rarely difficult to get on a train into Moorgate in the morning peak as so many people alight at FPK to get the tube).

Perhaps some money is 'lost' for Intercity passengers who get a ticket to London Terminals and then use the tube to the city, but is it really worth changing?

 

[Mojo]

Given that Thameslink customers only had the "easement" for a few years after the branch line to Moorgate closed, I can perhaps understand the argument that it is unfair that the line to Moorgate that still has trains retains acceptance on the Underground.

 

[Hadders]

I've been in London today using a Stevenage-London Terminals web saver off peak day return with a Gold Card discount.

The poster is still in place so I couldn't resist taking an impromptu trip to Moorgate and back on the Metropolitan Line. To my surprise the ticket worked the barrier at Kings Cross St Pancras both ways!