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Hull Trains seek to replace fleet with bi-modes

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Hull Trains have applied for a new track access contract for 10 years from 2019 so they can procure a fleet of 5 car bi-modes to be intoduced from 2020.

www.networkrail.co.uk/browsedirecto...l Trains - Section 17 - Closes 28 August 2015

The proposed Selby to Hull electrification scheme is likely to be delivered in or after Control Period 6, depending on Network Rail’s wider electrification programme. Uncertainty over the timing means it is not sustainable for the region to wait until electrification is complete to order Electrical Multiple Units.

Our introduction of new bi-mode trains is not reliant on electrification of this route and will ensure customers can benefit from new high-quality rolling stock earlier and provide additional capacity enabling continued development of the business, benefitting the region and growing the overall demand for rail.

The current fleet of Class 180s is expensive to operate and maintain, and would require a refit by 2019. Without investment in new trains Hull Trains’ customers face a potential dis-benefit from comparatively slower journey times and relatively older stock.

We are seeking a term of 10 years to provide the certainty to enable investment in a fleet of new bi-mode trains to operate these services and associated maintenance arrangements. We have also made provision for the costs of operating the new trains on the infrastructure, for example, route clearance between Hull and Beverley.

The new contract will start from the date of expiry of the current ORR approved Track Access Agreement for Hull Trains (01:59 hours on the Principle Change Date in 2019). We are seeking access rights for 10 years to 01:59 hours on the Principle Change Date in 2029.

We expect to introduce the trains from January 2020, and will make the rights contingent on introducing the full fleet by December 2021.
 
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Starmill

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Should allow them to continue development of their Yorkshire Coast services too. More to Beverley then on to Driffield and Bridlington? Seems like a good move.
 

Domh245

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We have also made provision for the costs of operating the new trains on the infrastructure, for example, route clearance between Hull and Beverley.

That would imply that they are looking at either yet more 800 clones, possibly as a tag on to the GWR order for the SW fleet.

We have also made provision for the costs of operating the new trains on the infrastructure, for example, route clearance between Hull and Beverley.

...

We expect to introduce the trains from January 2020

So either they will need this 2019 refit anyway, or they will apply to the DfT for an exemption, presuming that the refit is to do with DDA.
 

fgwrich

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That would imply that they are looking at either yet more 800 clones, possibly as a tag on to the GWR order for the SW fleet.

To be honest, id have thought that was more than likely to have happend as a result of the delays with the DfT giving NR the Hull Electrification Job in return for a discount to the their beloved Hitachi's AT300s - We'll take on your electrification and give you discounted access to it, if you buy from our new pet train project.
 

D365

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To be honest, id have thought that was more than likely to have happend as a result of the delays with the DfT giving NR the Hull Electrification Job in return for a discount to the their beloved Hitachi's AT300s - We'll take on your electrification and give you discounted access to it, if you buy from our new pet train project.

Why would Network Rail be purchasing AT300s?

I'm guessing there's a possibility that the HT fleet is to be sourced from the 'option' units on the FGW/SW AT300 order.
 

fgwrich

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Why would Network Rail be purchasing AT300s?

I'm guessing there's a possibility that the HT fleet is to be sourced from the 'option' units on the FGW/SW AT300 order.

Sorry, it's been a long day. But I meant as the original Hull Trains Electrification Project now seems to have been tagged onto NRs workload by the DfT for Hull Trains - but with the catch of that it wasn't going to be achievable in Hull Trains original timescale - , that it would be fairly likely that the DfT has offered Hull Trains in return for the delay a nice and generous discount on an AT300 option. As opposed to say, Hull Trains going away and purchasing their own design of rolling stock.
 

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Are they proposing an entire fleet of 5 car units? Are they indicating a provision for all services to be doubled up?
 
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That would imply that they are looking at either yet more 800 clones, possibly as a tag on to the GWR order for the SW fleet.
If there was any doubt the fact that the application states they will be using the manufacturer's facility in Doncaster pretty much confirms they'll be bi-mode AT300s. The language used in the application is also similar to that used in their (FirstGroup's) application for East Coast Trains which has since been confirmed as the electric variant AT300.

Are they proposing an entire fleet of 5 car units? Are they indicating a provision for all services to be doubled up?
They would be proposing to order a fleet with more carriages if they were to double up every service. They do say they have the ability to double up key services.

This all leaves the question, what next for the 180s?
 

pemma

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As per the TPE thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119507 I suspect that the class 180's wil all end up with Grand Central, unless they end up going to Arriva Trains Wales to work alongside the class 175's which would then free up some class 158's possibly.

Depends if Grand Central start running any more East Coast services, given the HSTs will be replaced by 180s from FGW and 180s won't be suitable for West Coast services due to being non-tilting.
 

Yabbadabba

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I suspect that they a have one eye on the future with the signalling south of Doncaster supposed to be incab signalling ETCS and as the AT300s are designed to the new equipment, so it saves retro fitting and adapting the existing fleet, plus it will give the same breaking and accelerating curve as the VTEC ones so they can fit in better. The bonus of bi-mode is it doesn't matter has far or short the wires run as they can get to where they want.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Sorry, it's been a long day. But I meant as the original Hull Trains Electrification Project now seems to have been tagged onto NRs workload by the DfT for Hull Trains - but with the catch of that it wasn't going to be achievable in Hull Trains original timescale - , that it would be fairly likely that the DfT has offered Hull Trains in return for the delay a nice and generous discount on an AT300 option. As opposed to say, Hull Trains going away and purchasing their own design of rolling stock.

This is Open Access. The DfT doesn't get involved.
But probably linked to the privately financed FGW AT300 order.
5 years is a long way away yet.
A contract will be 2 years away at least.
 

47802

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I suspect that they a have one eye on the future with the signalling south of Doncaster supposed to be incab signalling ETCS and as the AT300s are designed to the new equipment, so it saves retro fitting and adapting the existing fleet, plus it will give the same breaking and accelerating curve as the VTEC ones so they can fit in better. The bonus of bi-mode is it doesn't matter has far or short the wires run as they can get to where they want.

Indeed and possibly given potentially cheaper fuel costs on Electric, and perhaps better reliability of AT300's GC/Arriva might look to do the same at some point.
 

jimm

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Sorry, it's been a long day. But I meant as the original Hull Trains Electrification Project now seems to have been tagged onto NRs workload by the DfT for Hull Trains - but with the catch of that it wasn't going to be achievable in Hull Trains original timescale - , that it would be fairly likely that the DfT has offered Hull Trains in return for the delay a nice and generous discount on an AT300 option. As opposed to say, Hull Trains going away and purchasing their own design of rolling stock.

What has this got to do with the DfT? That's right, nothing. HT is an open access operation. And the only people who will be giving discounts on AT300s would be the people building them, namely Hitachi.

As DAB_Move says above, when First Group first revealed the proposal to order AT300s for West Country services in March, they also agreed an option for up to 30 more sets, so this looks like being the first draw-down from those 30.

Made up of seven nine-car and 22 five-car trains, with an option for 30 more

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html
 

pemma

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As DAB_Move says above, when First Group first revealed the proposal to order AT300s for West Country services in March, they also agreed an option for up to 30 more sets, so this looks like being the first draw-down from those 30.

All recent orders seem to have options for more. The 387 order had an optional for additional which has taken up for Gatwick Express and FGW.
 

WatcherZero

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Locks in a unit price, meaning they don't have to negotiate it again for a follow on order.
 

superalbs

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Let's hope Cross Country orders some of these too, to replace the current low-capacity DEMUs they have in use.
 

jopsuk

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At one point they were rather planning on the route to Hull being electrified sooner, not later, weren't they? Ordering bi-modes then is an acceptance of the reality.
 

D365

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At one point they were rather planning on the route to Hull being electrified sooner, not later, weren't they? Ordering bi-modes then is an acceptance of the reality.

Since then though, Hull Trains has extended some of their services to Beverley, bi-modes (for now at least) means they won't have to give these up already.
 

ainsworth74

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At one point they were rather planning on the route to Hull being electrified sooner, not later, weren't they? Ordering bi-modes then is an acceptance of the reality.

Yes I believe they were targeting work starting at the end of 2014 with a view to it being place for City of Culture in 2017. Once than plan became un-viable it's been moved back after 2020 sometime.

Since then though, Hull Trains has extended some of their services to Beverley, bi-modes (for now at least) means they won't have to give these up already.

Plus, and in some ways I wonder if this isn't a bigger consideration, it means they can still take advantage of a range of diversionary routes around the ECML. HT have been quite keen to get to London no-matter the route. They've been down the full length of the MML to get to St Pancras before! Obviously they'll be more restricted depending on route clearances for AT300s but I can see Bi-Mode being appealing for that reason.
 

D365

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Plus, and in some ways I wonder if this isn't a bigger consideration, it means they can still take advantage of a range of diversionary routes around the ECML. HT have been quite keen to get to London no-matter the route. They've been down the full length of the MML to get to St Pancras before! Obviously they'll be more restricted depending on route clearances for AT300s but I can see Bi-Mode being appealing for that reason.

Although if MML electrification had gone ahead (and when it does), [almost] all of that particular route will be workable by 'pure' electric units.

- [Within the typical remit of clearance works, bearing in mind any future rolling stock requirement.]
 
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