• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Politicians and travel expenses

Status
Not open for further replies.

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
Mod note

Split from a thread about new TPE DMU's.

While a recent DfT press release said Osborne can spot a Pacer from 100 yards, it was only a couple of years ago when a Tatton constituent asked Mr Osborne about getting newer bigger trains to replace overcrowded outdated trains and Mr Osborne replied saying he wasn't aware of a problem but said now he has been made aware of it he's taken it up with DfT and Northern Rail.

He probably didn't realise you could even get a train from his constituency into Manchester, as opposed to jumping on the first thing from Wilmslow back to London - always assuming he remembers to have the right type of ticket to sit in first class...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
He probably didn't realise you could even get a train from his constituency into Manchester, as opposed to jumping on the first thing from Wilmslow back to London - always assuming he remembers to have the right type of ticket to sit in first class...

Except the time he had a standard class ticket and sat in first with his aide tweeting he pressed the wrong button on the ticket machine but later deleting the tweet and instead claiming Osborne wanted to upgrade because there were no table seats available in standard.
 

childwallblues

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,823
Location
Liverpool, UK
He probably didn't realise you could even get a train from his constituency into Manchester, as opposed to jumping on the first thing from Wilmslow back to London - always assuming he remembers to have the right type of ticket to sit in first class...

As ALL MPs get first class travel the Right Hon Member for Tatton will know this!
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
As ALL MPs get first class travel the Right Hon Member for Tatton will know this!

But they should not if the taxpayer is footing the bill, any travel in 1st Class ought to be footed by their own salary, indeed all and any expense claims ought to be met by their salary.

They get paid enough so can pay their own way!
 

childwallblues

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,823
Location
Liverpool, UK
But they should not if the taxpayer is footing the bill, any travel in 1st Class ought to be footed by their own salary, indeed all and any expense claims ought to be met by their salary.

They get paid enough so can pay their own way!
And I suppose that you should include any publicly funded body including the BBC in that then.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,551
Location
Mold, Clwyd
As ALL MPs get first class travel the Right Hon Member for Tatton will know this!

But they should not if the taxpayer is footing the bill, any travel in 1st Class ought to be footed by their own salary, indeed all and any expense claims ought to be met by their salary.
They get paid enough so can pay their own way!

Not any more.
Don't you remember the protests from Nicholas Winterton about having to travel with the riff-raff?
From the IPSA site: http://www.parliamentarystandards.org.uk/publicationsdocs/definitions.pdf
The cost of first class travel is fully reimbursed only if it is at or below the cost of a standard open ticket by rail, or the equivalent by air, sea, etc

They are basically limited to Standard Anytime fares (unless a First Class fare is cheaper).
Rules for Cabinet Ministers might be different (security etc).
David Cameron travelled EasyJet this week.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Not any more.
Don't you remember the protests from Nicholas Winterton about having to travel with the riff-raff?
From the IPSA site: http://www.parliamentarystandards.org.uk/publicationsdocs/definitions.pdf


They are basically limited to Standard Anytime fares (unless a First Class fare is cheaper).
Rules for Cabinet Ministers might be different (security etc).
David Cameron travelled EasyJet this week.

That might be but hardly any MP listens to it except maybe one or two in the minority, it's examples like the obscene expense claims made by the speaker of the house that I'm referring to.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33649258
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-owning-taxpayer-funded-homes-in-capital.html

They get paid £74k a year which is a payrise from aabout £68k which to me is more then enough to pay for their own expenses, it's not like they live in the real world where people struggle to get onto the housing ladder or earn a fraction of what a MP earns.

Not to mention that when unions and pay conditions are mentioned in the same sentence, said MPs come out against them but it's fine for them to get payrises.

And I suppose that you should include any publicly funded body including the BBC in that then.

I'm not referring to the BBC, I'm referring to the MPs in parliament who get paid more then anyone here and yet still have the gaunt to claim expenses.

They get paid more then any single person on this forum yet it's fine?

Anyway this is going off topic, as to the matter in hand I think it's probably be more Loco Hauled for Northern to spare DMUs for TPE.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
That might be but hardly any MP listens to it except maybe one or two in the minority, it's examples like the obscene expense claims made by the speaker of the house that I'm referring to.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33649258
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-owning-taxpayer-funded-homes-in-capital.html

They get paid £74k a year which is a payrise from aabout £68k which to me is more then enough to pay for their own expenses, it's not like they live in the real world where people struggle to get onto the housing ladder or earn a fraction of what a MP earns.

Not to mention that when unions and pay conditions are mentioned in the same sentence, said MPs come out against them but it's fine for them to get payrises.



I'm not referring to the BBC, I'm referring to the MPs in parliament who get paid more then anyone here and yet still have the gaunt to claim expenses.

They get paid more then any single person on this forum yet it's fine?

Anyway this is going off topic, as to the matter in hand I think it's probably be more Loco Hauled for Northern to spare DMUs for TPE.

Off topic, but I suspect quite a few of the train/tube drivers on here get over £74k when overtime is added in.

I myself have had a salary higher than this in the past.

I suspect there will be at least a dozen forum members outside the realm of train driving whose salary is over this.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,024
Location
SE London
Off topic, but I suspect quite a few of the train/tube drivers on here get over £74k when overtime is added in.

I myself have had a salary higher than this in the past.

I suspect there will be at least a dozen forum members outside the realm of train driving whose salary is over this.

I completely agree. In my own field (computer programming), a very senior developer can earn about that much - and that's for doing a job that's much less stressful and involves considerably shorter hours than is typically expected of an MP. (That is for a very senior developer I stress - most developers will earn considerably less).

In a way this debate shows how unequal UK society has become. To someone working on minimum wage and therefore struggling on an income of say £15K, an MPs salary would look unimaginably high. But compared to what a lot of businessmen and senior professionals would earn - especially in London - £74K isn't particularly high at all. I suspect that until a way is found to reduce the horrendous inequalities that have grown in the UK in recent decades, this debate on MPs salaries will be unresolvable.

They get paid £74k a year which is a payrise from aabout £68k which to me is more then enough to pay for their own expenses, it's not like they live in the real world where people struggle to get onto the housing ladder or earn a fraction of what a MP earns.

On the contrary, £74K is unlikely to be even remotely enough to pay for most MPs' reasonable expenses on top of providing the MP with a reasonable standard of living. Typically an MP's expenses will need to include:
  • Employing full-time staff to respond to the dozens of individual letters that would typically come in from constituents every day that require answering - or very often considerable casework to resolve constituents' problems - and of course the postage and office costs involved.
  • Travelling at least weekly between London and your constituency.
  • Renting a flat in London (if your constituency is not within a reasonable commute from Westminster).
  • Considerable travelling within your constituency to meet businesses, constituents etc.
Expecting an MP to fund all that from their salaries would basically bankrupt any MP who wasn't already very wealthy before they became an MP - and would obviously have the effect of ensuring that only the very rich could afford to become MPs in the first place, thereby guaranteeing that Parliament would become [even more] out of touch with most of the population. It would also of course act as a huge disincentive for MPs to be active in their constituencies - if doing so cost them a lot of money that they could not claim back.
 
Last edited:

trentside

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
14 Aug 2010
Messages
3,337
Location
Messroom
My local MP travels First Class using a Senior Railcard, which makes it cheaper than a Standard Anytime if he buys Off Peak First singles in each direction. How do I know? As I've sold him the tickets a few times.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
On the contrary, £74K is unlikely to be even remotely enough to pay for most MPs' reasonable expenses on top of providing the MP with a reasonable standard of living. Typically an MP's expenses will need to include:
  • Employing full-time staff to respond to the dozens of individual letters that would typically come in from constituents every day that require answering - or very often considerable casework to resolve constituents' problems - and of course the postage and office costs involved.
  • Travelling at least weekly between London and your constituency.
  • Renting a flat in London (if your constituency is not within a reasonable commute from Westminster).
  • Considerable travelling within your constituency to meet businesses, constituents etc.
Expecting an MP to fund all that from their salaries would basically bankrupt any MP who wasn't already very wealthy before they became an MP - and would obviously have the effect of ensuring that only the very rich could afford to become MPs in the first place, thereby guaranteeing that Parliament would become [even more] out of touch with most of the population. It would also of course act as a huge disincentive for MPs to be active in their constituencies - if doing so cost them a lot of money that they could not claim back.

Indeed, it's unreasonable to expect an MP from Scotland/Northern England to pay for their own travel and accommodation in their constituency from their own pocket. In real terms it is a huge pay cut compared to an MP closer to Whitehall.

The system of expenses is a good thing and helps reduce inequality due to income and geography. MPs expenses just need to be monitored properly and subject to scrutiny to avoid spurious claims.
 

trentside

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
14 Aug 2010
Messages
3,337
Location
Messroom
But surely in his case the appropriate fare is a Standard Off Peak with Railcard? An Anytime is a false comparison.

Possibly, but if they only base expenses on it being cheaper than the Anytime then he can do it legitimately.

I know I shouldn't think like this, but I'd rather he bought a Senior Railcard BFS than an SVR/SSR for my 3.5% commission. That way I feel like I'm making something back - though in reality, probably not.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,527
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Legitimately yes, though I do think it should be the cheapest relevant Standard fare as it is in most companies. Though I would make an exception for people willing to use their own time to delay a journey or travel later in order to make it off peak when the relevant trains would not be.
 
Last edited:

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
Legitimately yes, though I do think it should be the cheapest relevant Standard fare as it is in most companies. Though I would make an exception for people willing to use their own time to delay a journey or travel later in order to make it off peak when the relevant trains would not be.



Because politicians have much more control over their own time than most employees, it's not practical to have a rule that they can travel first class if they travel at a less convenient time.

That's why the have the SOR rule: They can buy any ticket cheaper than an SOR, or they can pay the upgrade out of their own pocket.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
It sounds alright in principle to say "MPs get enough as it is!" until you realise that you just make it unaffordable for those on low-incomes to become MPs. I'm not a big fan of seeing lots of money going their way either, but when you consider their constant travel etc. it all adds up, and the last thing we want is for MP to be a rich-man's job.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,527
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That's why the have the SOR rule: They can buy any ticket cheaper than an SOR, or they can pay the upgrade out of their own pocket.

But that rule causes tremendous waste. An SOR is only appropriate if the business need is to travel in the peak. If it isn't, an Off Peak is appropriate. And an Advance may be even more appropriate in many cases.

It's this kind of mickey-taking that would lead me to ban First Class travel on business for MPs unless the whole fare was paid out of their own pocket. That would concentrate minds on waste.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It sounds alright in principle to say "MPs get enough as it is!" until you realise that you just make it unaffordable for those on low-incomes to become MPs. I'm not a big fan of seeing lots of money going their way either, but when you consider their constant travel etc. it all adds up, and the last thing we want is for MP to be a rich-man's job.

I agree, but most commercial employers no longer allow First Class travel and require the cheapest appropriate ticket to be used, which for InterCity travel is rarely an SOR. I don't think I've ever bought an InterCity SOR for business travel. I do buy them for short distance travel, but that's different; restrictions differ, daily commuting is more likely, the price is lower and there are rarely Advances.
 
Last edited:

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
I agree, but most commercial employers no longer allow First Class travel and require the cheapest appropriate ticket to be used, which for InterCity travel is rarely an SOR. I don't think I've ever bought an InterCity SOR for business travel. I do buy them for short distance travel, but that's different; restrictions differ, daily commuting is more likely, the price is lower and there are rarely Advances.

Sorry - should've been clearer: that was aimed at people saying MPs get too much as it is, and not about whether they should get first-class travel. I really don't see the need for that, although I wonder if the current system lets them pay the difference if it's more expensive or if they have to pay the entire cost if they opt for first.
 

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
But that rule causes tremendous waste. An SOR is only appropriate if the business need is to travel in the peak. If it isn't, an Off Peak is appropriate. And an Advance may be even more appropriate in many cases.

Again, the problem is that the MPs determine the business need for themselves, since they write their own schedules. The solution applied has been to publish their expenses and let voters make their own minds up on whether their behaviour is acceptable - and vote out someone that's taking the p**s.

And they regularly need flexible tickets because of unpredictable voting requirements - if you're expecting a 5pm vote and it suddenly becomes an 8pm vote, then you missed your Advance ticket on the peak train.

Looking at my MP, she very rarely travels on anything other than an Advance or an Off-Peak, standard class (usually an Adv single to London and an OPS from London). I think I saw two SOSs in the whole of 2014, and one of those was for a recall (when she presumably had to travel at very short notice).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,527
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Again, the problem is that the MPs determine the business need for themselves, since they write their own schedules. The solution applied has been to publish their expenses and let voters make their own minds up on whether their behaviour is acceptable - and vote out someone that's taking the p**s.

That does sound a good approach.

And they regularly need flexible tickets because of unpredictable voting requirements - if you're expecting a 5pm vote and it suddenly becomes an 8pm vote, then you missed your Advance ticket on the peak train.

But you might genuinely be better off buying that Advance, then if you miss it buying an Off Peak Return in the other direction (keeping the return half for later use). No need for an Anytime just in case. Or buying an Advance, and another backup one. Or whatever.

Looking at my MP, she very rarely travels on anything other than an Advance or an Off-Peak, standard class (usually an Adv single to London and an OPS from London). I think I saw two SOSs in the whole of 2014, and one of those was for a recall (when she presumably had to travel at very short notice).

That sounds fair enough. It's just the "it's cheaper than an Anytime so I can travel First Class" that I feel to be inappropriate. The comparison should be with the cheapest relevant Standard ticket.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
Although I retired in 2010, I earned far more than the "basic MP" when I was Senior Head of Projects in basic salary alone, notwithstanding bonus options payable. So you are not 100% correct in your statement above.

To further this - I also don't understand how we can suddenly equate all jobs. MPs have a lot of expenses involved in their work, and particularly importantly it should be a position open to all, and not just those who can afford to fund it.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,527
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
To further this - I also don't understand how we can suddenly equate all jobs. MPs have a lot of expenses involved in their work, and particularly importantly it should be a position open to all, and not just those who can afford to fund it.

Agreed, but while all legitimate expenses should be claimed, the scrutiny of them should be at least to the standard applied by most private businesses - they must be essential to the business, and the best value for money possible. Which means that buying a First Class Advance because it's cheaper than a Standard Anytime (but there was a conveniently ignored Standard Advance available) is not appropriate.

On *very* rare occasions there exist First Class Advances cheaper than the cheapest Standard ticket for the required trains. This would to me be fine, but I would want to see a printout of the available tickets to prove it was the case, because it is so rare.
 
Last edited:

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,181
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
Owning a Senior Rail Card is not compulsory, and presumably the MP in question paid for it him/herself, so it seems valid to me that if they can purchase a First Class ticket with railcard deduction cheaper than a full price standard class one then why not?

A dear and sadly now departed friend of mine worked for an Independent MP as his constituency secretary. She recounted a situation where the MP had been on a trip abroad, for which he was issued with a cash allowance for any incidental expenses. When he returned, he enquired as to the procedure for paying back the surplus, only to be told no such procedure existed as no-one ever does that! Says it all about the culture :roll: .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top