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Class 323 cascade to Midlands

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po8crg

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Per Manchester Evening News, Porterbrook are moving their 323s from the Manchester commuter routes to the Midlands.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...three-commuter-rail-routes-manchester-9914651

...
Passenger groups have reacted with fury to the decision by train leasing firm Porterbrooks NOT to offer them to bidders for the northern franchises.

The three-carriage Class 323 electric trains, due to be moved next April, are set to go from three Manchester Piccadilly routes.

These are the Northern Rail lines to Crewe via Handforth and Manchester Airport; to Stoke via Macclesfield and to Hattersley via Glossop and Hadfield....
 
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pemma

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There was a thread on this a few weeks ago but the moderators merged it in to this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110701

There's no new information in that article. Other than apparently Northern only use the 323s on 3 routes instead of 4 routes. No confirmation of 323s going to LM, still just speculation following a claim Porterbrook won't lease 323s to the next Northern operator.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Passenger groups have reacted with fury

Can't say I've noticed much fury about.
17 trains are not going to evaporate with no replacement.
It might be Christmas before the veil is lifted on the new franchise.
I doubt a complete switch to a different train type can be engineered by next April anyway.
 

thealexweb

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Will the next Northern just be offered more Class 319s. Thete may be downsides, e.g. poorer acceleration, but having more standardised EMU fleets here and in the West Midlands will be handy.
 

pemma

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Will the next Northern just be offered more Class 319s. Thete may be downsides, e.g. poorer acceleration, but having more standardised EMU fleets here and in the West Midlands will be handy.

Short answer is we don't know.

There's also suggestions it was intended 350/4s would head to Northern for Regional Express but Angel/Porterbrook want the /1s, /3s and /4s to be together for consistency but they aren't bothered if the /2s finish up with a different operator which has led to suggestions about Northern getting 350/2s.

Porterbrook may also be trying to sell in 319s upgrades to TOCs which include an option for rewired 3 car trains with faster acceleration as well as one for fitting corridor connections.
 

507 001

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Short answer is we don't know.

There's also suggestions it was intended 350/4s would head to Northern for Regional Express but Angel/Porterbrook want the /1s, /3s and /4s to be together for consistency but they aren't bothered if the /2s finish up with a different operator which has led to suggestions about Northern getting 350/2s.

Porterbrook may also be trying to sell in 319s upgrades to TOCs which include an option for rewired 3 car trains with faster acceleration as well as one for fitting corridor connections.

350/2s please!!!!!!
 

Clip

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*insert usual pedantic post about the train in the picture not matching the trains in the article*

Well paul - looks like you will be getting a new mode of transport after all :)
 

D365

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*insert usual pedantic post about the train in the picture not matching the trains in the article*

Don't worry - I saw somebody commenting today on a picture of a Class 142 Pacer in everyday Northern skin, stating quite assuredly that it is a Northern Electric train :lol:
 

Silverlinky

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Short answer is we don't know.

There's also suggestions it was intended 350/4s would head to Northern for Regional Express but Angel/Porterbrook want the /1s, /3s and /4s to be together for consistency but they aren't bothered if the /2s finish up with a different operator which has led to suggestions about Northern getting 350/2s.

Porterbrook may also be trying to sell in 319s upgrades to TOCs which include an option for rewired 3 car trains with faster acceleration as well as one for fitting corridor connections.

This would make sense, the /1, /3 and /4's are all owned by Angel and the /2's are owned by Porterbrook. The /2's go "off lease" from LM in April 2016 so could be moved elsewhere then.
 

swt_passenger

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Northern have only secured 20 x 319s so far ...

Unless of course they (or their competing franchise applicants) have secured far more and haven't publicised it yet.

Do you think their highest priority is telling the public what their plans are - given that DfT prohibit franchise bidders from making any announcements at this stage of proceedings?
 

bluenoxid

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*outpouring of grief at losing favourite type of train and wondering what the last service will be*

It's going to be very interesting over the next few months!
 
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pemma

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Unless of course they (or their competing franchise applicants) have secured far more and haven't publicised it yet.

Do you think their highest priority is telling the public what their plans are - given that DfT prohibit franchise bidders from making any announcements at this stage of proceedings?

Bit difficult to sign a lease if you don`t know whether you`ll be running the services. Only if all the bidders proposed using the same number of 319s and have agreements with Porterbrook can any thing be said for certain.

Northern as they currently exist won`t be running services after April next year, it`ll be a new company.

Not sure if it was an error but North West Tonight said the 323s will leave the Manchester area in 2019.
 

swt_passenger

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Bit difficult to sign a lease if you don`t know whether you`ll be running the services. Only if all the bidders proposed using the same number of 319s and have agreements with Porterbrook can any thing be said for certain.

All I'm saying is that any individual bidder's negotiations with Porterbrook are not in the public domain, because DfT won't allow it.

It's possible the first we'll hear of the solution is on the day the franchise is awarded, or more likely after the standstill period. It's just they way it is done. Surely all the bidders are in the same position, they cannot sign leases until the franchise is awarded?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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All I'm saying is that any individual bidder's negotiations with Porterbrook are not in the public domain, because DfT won't allow it.
It's possible the first we'll hear of the solution is on the day the franchise is awarded, or more likely after the standstill period. It's just they way it is done. Surely all the bidders are in the same position, they cannot sign leases until the franchise is awarded?

What we don't know is if negotiations are proceeding on the LM direct award with Govia.
It's entirely possible Govia came up with a Northern plan which optimised the LM+Northern fleets, something that the other bidders (Arriva, Abellio) would find harder to do.
Either way, we are not going to know for a good while yet.
 

WatcherZero

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We know it was Porterbrook that came up with the plans, they speculatively refused to sign a new lease for the 323's with Northern bidders in the hope they could then sign a deal with Midland. The motivation was the reduction in supply chain and maintenenance staff/parts cost.
 

Viscount702

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Am I missing something here. LM are in no better position to sign a lease as their own franchise runs out in April as I understand it. The only way I can see that LM get the 323s is if The Government agrees to it as part of any new direct award.
 

thealexweb

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Short answer is we don't know.

There's also suggestions it was intended 350/4s would head to Northern for Regional Express but Angel/Porterbrook want the /1s, /3s and /4s to be together for consistency but they aren't bothered if the /2s finish up with a different operator which has led to suggestions about Northern getting 350/2s.

Porterbrook may also be trying to sell in 319s upgrades to TOCs which include an option for rewired 3 car trains with faster acceleration as well as one for fitting corridor connections.

I do not see why the Class 350/Xs are being dragged into this. Yet more micro fleets to maintain hundreds of miles apart. If the next Northern Rail franchise needs more EMUs a standard fleet is needed, e.g. strip Northern of all its Class 32Xs and send every single Class 319 north as replacements. The 66 Class 319s Northern Rail does not already have at its disposal replacing 3 x Class 321/9, 5 x Class 322, 17 x Class 323 and 16 x Class 333. Also allows for replacement as well as Phases 3 to 7 of the NW electrification.
 
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sprinterguy

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Up to thirty seven class 350/2s is not really a "micro fleet" (though I have nothing to substantiate the veracity of any such claim future Northern bidders might have on such stock); when you consider that Northern currently have "only" seventeen 323s and twenty 319s.

I also don't see how Northern would benefit from standardising on a single class of EMU for allocations very distinct of each other East and West of the Pennines: Neville Hill depot staff and Leeds area traincrew have up to 25 years experience on class 321 units and around 15 years on the class 333s: Who benefits from re-training all these staff (granted the conversion from 321/322 to 319 is fairly simple) on a different class of unit?

Certainly, not the passengers on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines who would have to cope with older, shorter trains. Such standardisation surely only makes sense to the most arbitrary of bean counters with no intimate knowledge of the areas served.
 
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pemma

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Certainly, not the passengers on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines who would have to cope with older, shorter trains.

Metro have a guarantee the 333s will remain in the Leeds area until at least 2020.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Up to thirty seven class 350/2s is not really a "micro fleet" (though I have nothing to substantiate the veracity of any such claim future Northern bidders might have on such stock); when you consider that Northern currently have "only" seventeen 323s and twenty 319s.

You could also argue the 350s aren't a consistent fleet at LM. The 350/2s haven't been uprated to 110mph and they have different interiors.
 

158722

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Up to thirty seven class 350/2s is not really a "micro fleet" (though I have nothing to substantiate the veracity of any such claim future Northern bidders might have on such stock); when you consider that Northern currently have "only" seventeen 323s and twenty 319s.

I also don't see how Northern would benefit from standardising on a single class of EMU for allocations very distinct of each other East and West of the Pennines: Neville Hill depot staff and Leeds area traincrew have up to 25 years experience on class 321 units and around 15 years on the class 333s: Who benefits from re-training all these staff (granted the conversion from 321/322 to 319 is fairly simple) on a different class of unit?

Certainly, not the passengers on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines who would have to cope with older, shorter trains. Such standardisation surely only makes sense to the most arbitrary of bean counters with no intimate knowledge of the areas served.

We've had this discussion on the original thread on this theme. One of the conclusions being that Northern could quite happily find work for the 37 350/2s in the North west, replacing the 17 323s (if that rumour comes true) with the rest on the proposed Regional Express services from Liverpool, Manchester to Blackpool and Windermere, etc. There was never any mention of 350/2s going east as sufficient work seems to exist or will exist sometime soon in the west.
 

12guard4

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Can't see LM getting in 17 323s in almost a swap for 350/2s. Makes no sense because then the problem remains of having a small fleet to maintain. Not sure what LM would do with 17 323s although speculation is that LM will turn into a midlands franchise so it is possible they will operate only 323s on the Cross City, WVH-WSL and Coventry routes and lose all 350s to West Coast. Just a thought
 

323235

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This is precisely what London Midland would do with 17 x 323s:

Make all CrossCity services or almost all 6 car (I know many are already) , 3tph to Redditch and the services to Bromsgrove. That takes a sizable proportion and any left over use on the other lines International/Walsall/Wolves or Electrified Chase Line
 

D365

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Can't see LM getting in 17 323s in almost a swap for 350/2s. Makes no sense because then the problem remains of having a small fleet to maintain. Not sure what LM would do with 17 323s although speculation is that LM will turn into a midlands franchise so it is possible they will operate only 323s on the Cross City, WVH-WSL and Coventry routes and lose all 350s to West Coast. Just a thought

As has been said on numerous occasions, the 37-strong Class 350/2 fleet at either LM or Northern (with the 10 350/4s and additional 319s moving to LM?) is not a small fleet at all.
 
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