Is building a new Victoria line station at Drayton Park viable?

[DasLunatic]

I've been studying this wonderful map and saw something a bit odd: National Rail platforms at Drayton Park, but no Tube ones. So, could Tube platforms be built here, and what effect would it have on:
- Services into Moorgate
- TfL's upgrade of the Vic line
-36tph operation

 

[yorkie]

Demand is satisfied by the existing station (well, except on weekends but that's another story and the solution to that is to run the service on weekends rather than build new stations!).

Unless you're talking about demand for football fixtures? In which case, if Arsenal are prepared to pay the mega millions required, then it could happen. But as they're obviously not, then it won't happen.

If you're asking why taxpayers don't foot the bill, let's look at it another way: could you think of better ways to spend the money? I am sure many people could!

None of the existing users of the mostly quite full non-stop trains would thank you for the suggestion either

 

[TheNewNo2]

Well if you put a Vic Line station at Drayton Park, you're essentially creating a duplication in service between GTR and LU on Highbury & Islington - Drayton Park - Finsbury Park. That seems counterproductive to me as the Vic Line operates 30+tph with 8 car trains, vs GTR's 6tph 6-car trains.

1) Services into Moorgate would likely see a slight reduction in traffic as people wanting to go to/from Drayton Park would probably rather take the Victoria Line than GTR's trains. People outside Highbury to Finsbury would be unaffected.

2 & 3) It may be problematic, as you'd increase end to end journey time, and thus require more trains to keep the same service frequency.

 

[Mojo]

Drayton Park is around 5 Min walk from Arsenal or Holloway Rd stations.

 

[jopsuk]

Between Green Park and Finsbury Park the Victoria Line is more or less a limited-stop, express service relieving the Picadilly line. That's what it was built for.

The main thing that would help Drayton Park would be to run the Moorgate line full-time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Drayton Park station is above ground, which is something the map doesn't show clearly (the tunnel portal is at the south end of the platform, that's what the mark on the map is). A tube station would be astronomically expensive, as well as pointless: it's a 5 minute walk to Holloway Road and Arsenal, and a 15 minute walk to Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington.

 

[321over360]

Given that Drayton Park used to be served by Tube trains until the 70s (up until the Moorgate Crash) so it has previously had the capability to run tube stock, just it was built to accommodate bigger trains from the outset, the only realistic way is to remove the GTR services and connect the line to the main Northern Line somewhere before Moorgate if a Tube service is to come back, however that would be highly disruptive to the Northern Line to have their old route (but wholly separate) to the main Northern Line (Bank Branch)

 

[jopsuk]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that 231over360. Rather suggesting adding Victoria Line platforms beneath Drayton Park station for interchange.

 

[A-driver]

Drayton park will see a weekend service from December this year. However it will close on football days like it currently does. There are also tunnels linking the NCL to the vic line both North of Drayton park and south of Highbury. But these tunnels don't have track in them.

Not that I'm seriously suggesting bringing the vic line up at DP to mix with the mainline traffic.

 

[Dent]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that 231over360. Rather suggesting adding Victoria Line platforms beneath Drayton Park station for interchange.

Given that the same interchange is already available at Finsbury Park, what benefit would a duplicate interchange one stop away between the same lines have?

The original post didn't say anything about interchange anyway.

 

[Aictos]

Drayton park will see a weekend service from December this year. However it will close on football days like it currently does. There are also tunnels linking the NCL to the vic line both North of Drayton park and south of Highbury. But these tunnels don't have track in them.

Not that I'm seriously suggesting bringing the vic line up at DP to mix with the mainline traffic.

Are they not also improving the weekday service too from December?

Wonder when the first and last trains will be, especially if they're brought more into line with the operating hours of the LUL services.

As to building a interchange at Drayton Park, I feel what ought to be done is for whatever work to be done to enable it to be open when Arsenal plays at home, I rather that happen then pay for a duplicated interchange there.

 

[A-driver]

Are they not also improving the weekday service too from December?

Wonder when the first and last trains will be, especially if they're brought more into line with the operating hours of the LUL services.

As to building a interchange at Drayton Park, I feel what ought to be done is for whatever work to be done to enable it to be open when Arsenal plays at home, I rather that happen then pay for a duplicated interchange there.

Quite simply without rebuilding the platform (which involves re-designing the track as its in a cutting) they won't be able to open during match days. The platform is just far too small to cope with the number of passengers.

The last trains appear to be post midnight during the week. As for improving weekday services, there is already one train every 10mins so not sure how much they can improve it by.

 

[jopsuk]

could a second platform alongside the northbound track, effectively where the depot used to be, be an option? Then fence along the redundant platform face

 

[Aictos]

Quite simply without rebuilding the platform (which involves re-designing the track as its in a cutting) they won't be able to open during match days. The platform is just far too small to cope with the number of passengers.

The last trains appear to be post midnight during the week. As for improving weekday services, there is already one train every 10mins so not sure how much they can improve it by.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, meant harmonising operating hours if possible between LUL and GN so the Moorgate branch is open during the same hours the Underground is.

That is of course if it's possible.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, meant harmonising operating hours if possible between LUL and GN so the Moorgate branch is open during the same hours the Underground is.



That is of course if it's possible.

They pretty much are doing that from December. The only reason the opening hours are currently shorter on the NCL is because traditionally the line only opens for the city. It's only in the last few years that places like old street have become regenerated meaning there is now demand for a service at weekends and evenings. Plus with London overground, Highbury has become a big transport interchange so alone justifies weekend opening.

 

[greatkingrat]

Are they not also improving the weekday service too from December?

Wonder when the first and last trains will be, especially if they're brought more into line with the operating hours of the LUL services.

Yes, last train will be 0018 to Letchworth via Hertford, then 0048 to Finsbury Park only.

 

[Aictos]

Yes, last train will be 0018 to Letchworth via Hertford, then 0048 to Finsbury Park only.

Anywhere where this can be confirmed, not that I'm doubting you but I would like a second source if possible to verify it.

Guessing that 00:18 will be all stations or any idea if it will skip some stations such as Hornsey, Harringay, Bowes Park, , Grange Park, Crews Hill and Bayford to name some?

 

[greatkingrat]

All the times can be seen on Open Train Times

http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/MOG/2015-12-22/23:50

 

[whoosh]

00:48 a staff train??

 

[A-driver]

00:48 a staff train??

Possibly. The last train is currently staff only and it's highly unlikely they could run the last train in passenger service. As far as I'm aware they have to run a staff train to get the staff out to the park.

 

[Aictos]

All the times can be seen on Open Train Times

http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/MOG/2015-12-22/23:50

Thanks for the link

 

[34D]

There are also tunnels linking the NCL to the vic line both North of Drayton park and south of Highbury. But these tunnels don't have track in them.

I'm trying to visualise here. Can you advise where they are? Somewhere at home I have detailed plans of this area, but don't recall such tunnels

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm trying to visualise here. Can you advise where they are? Somewhere at home I have detailed plans of this area, but don't recall such tunnels

They would have been accessed at the country end of Drayton Park station, between the two lines that go up to the surface at Finsbury Park.

But they aren't complete and usable, only the "bits in the middle" exist. The area where the portals were at the Drayton Park end was subsequently demolished and significantly altered for the modern connections to the GN, including a trailing crossover; and the other ends of the tunnels are plugged before they reach the underground lines at Finsbury Park, because the new LU connections for the Southbound Vic and Picc are diving down under them to a deeper level.

There's a few internal pictures of the tunnels here, taken in 2003: http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Drayton_Park_station.html

and a youtube video of them in use here: https://youtu.be/KZxk08n8Jag?t=43s

...at about 0m 45s - 48s it shows the original portals at the country end, with the up side ramp from the mainline on the right.

 

[Dent]

There are also tunnels linking the NCL to the vic line both North of Drayton park and south of Highbury. But these tunnels don't have track in them.

Not quite. The tunnels North of Drayton Park link the NCL to the Southbound Victoria and Picadilly Line platforms, not the pair of Victoria Line platforms. There is no link from the NCL to the Northbound Victoria Line platform there.

That is the first I have heard of any link South of Highbury. When were these constructed, and for what purpose?

 

[jopsuk]

at Highbury, the Southbound Victoria Line platform used to be the NCL northbound platform

 

[A-driver]

Not quite. The tunnels North of Drayton Park link the NCL to the Southbound Victoria and Picadilly Line platforms, not the pair of Victoria Line platforms. There is no link from the NCL to the Northbound Victoria Line platform there.



That is the first I have heard of any link South of Highbury. When were these constructed, and for what purpose?

Either side of Highbury on the down line thee are tunnel portals which link to the Victoria line (no track in them). As the poster above says, the vic line uses the old NCL line at Highbury b

 

[Hophead]

Carto Metro may perhaps assist (it usually does when you want a detailed London rail map).

 

[Dent]

Either side of Highbury on the down line thee are tunnel portals which link to the Victoria line (no track in them). As the poster above says, the vic line uses the old NCL line at Highbury b

Only in one direction? In that case there is no scope for it being part of a regular service.

 

[A-driver]

Only in one direction? In that case there is no scope for it being part of a regular service.

On the down road. I never suggested it would be a regular service. There isn't any track there anyway. And they would never integrate the Victoria line with heavy suburban rail services-would never work. The vic line is too intense.

 

[Dent]

On the down road. I never suggested it would be a regular service. There isn't any track there anyway. And they would never integrate the Victoria line with heavy suburban rail services-would never work. The vic line is too intense.

What was your reason for mentioning these tunnels that don't go anywhere that could be used as part of any service?