Rail passengers to face airport-style security checks?

[SpacePhoenix]

Train companies could be forced to scan all passengers and their luggage
Proposal would apply on high-speed rail routes and not commuter services

It is set to be discussed by EU ministers at a security summit in October
It would be the first time rules on railway security applied across the EU
Comes after an attack was narrowly avoided on Paris-bound train on Friday

Moroccan Ayoub El Khazzani was wrestled to the floor after opening fire

Airport-style security could be introduced in Britain's main rail stations under new EU rules following the attempted terrorist attack on-board a train in France last week.

Under proposals set to be discussed by EU ministers in October, train companies could be forced to scan all passengers boarding high-speed trains travelling between major cities.

The proposed Brussels security clampdown, which would not apply on ordinary commuter services, would be the first time EU rules on railway security applied across the continent....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rules-following-foiled-French-gun-attack.html

The only UK trains that I can think of that it might apply to is Eurostar, could it mean that the Marseilles route would have to be axed? Apart from maybe HS2 when it opens in however many years time is there any route it could apply to?

In mainland Europe won't it fall foul of the Schengen agreement?

 

[Tommy1581]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rules-following-foiled-French-gun-attack.html

The only UK trains that I can think of that it might apply to is Eurostar, could it mean that the Marseilles route would have to be axed? Apart from maybe HS2 when it opens in however many years time is there any route it could apply to?

In mainland Europe won't it fall foul of the Schengen agreement?

Two words. Daily Mail.

 

[Groningen]

Fingers crossed, but it will not happen. Question i have is whether that attacker in Arras had a valid trainticket. We are putting fear in the travellers and that is what terrorist want to do.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Two words. Daily Mail.

Nope, over news outlets are also covering the same story

 

[Hadders]

How's that going to work then? What's the definition of a commuter train

London-Milton Keynes with Virgin you need to be security screened
London Milton Keynes with London Midland then no screening.

Can't honestly see it happening.

 

[dk1]

Knee jerk reaction as always these days. So tiresome.

 

[Kite159]

Knee jerk reaction as always these days. So tiresome.

Agreed

But at least it gives me a chance to laugh at the various comments on the Daily Fail website.

The UK won't be as bad as China where every subway station I visited you had to go via security check-points (metal detectors, bags via x-ray machines)

 

[dk1]

Agreed

But at least it gives me a chance to laugh at the various comments on the Daily Fail website.

 

[lincolnshire]

I think it Spain where they already scan passengers and X Ray luggage on long distance Inter City Trains, they have all the equipment at Malaga and Cadiz if I remember rightly.

 

[Mag_seven]

Knee jerk reaction as always these days. So tiresome.

And even if they do, the terrorists will just change their tactics and target commuter trains.

 

[trainophile]

Won't "the terrorists" just target commuter trains instead then? Same net result in terms of casualties.

^ Beat me to it!

 

[Darren R]

When I saw the thread title I immediately thought to myself "Daily Mail or Daily Express?"

I don't think there's any reason for us to get ourselves into a lather over this. It's not true. How do I know? It's in the "Daily Mail" and the opening sentence cites "new EU rules" as the reason for it happening. Of course it's made up!


(Famous last words! )

 

[3141]

We already know from 7/7/05 that people who want to commit mass murder on trains can do it. We knew well before that (1980s) that mass murder in a city street or in a shopping centre is easy. The way things are in the world today we unfortunately have to accept the risk. The price of screening everyone everywhere is not practical.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The price of screening everyone everywhere is not practical.

...and it wouldn't make any difference anyway because the terrorists would then just blow up or gun down the queue for the screening points.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...and it wouldn't make any difference anyway because the terrorists would then just blow up or gun down the queue for the screening points.

Quite.

If it did happen (and SNCF have already rubbished it, and they are quite influential) I would probably give up rail travel and just drive everywhere. With planes, you can take pointy things etc on if you want, just check them in. With E* you can't, because there is no proper checked baggage service. One of the many reasons I prefer flying over E*.

I like rail, but not if I'd have to waste an hour queueing and have my privacy invaded each time I used it. I tolerate it for air because it's so much quicker than other modes and it's only once in a while.

 

[6Gman]

Two words. Daily Mail.

Quite.

I note their assumption that all trains are either "high speed" or "commuter"!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it Spain where they already scan passengers and X Ray luggage on long distance Inter City Trains, they have all the equipment at Malaga and Cadiz if I remember rightly.

They do, and as a result, where was the attack when it did take place? Oh, on a crowded commuter train where there were far more deaths than on a low-density compulsory reservation Ave.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite.

I note their assumption that all trains are either "high speed" or "commuter"!

I'm not surprised to see that coming from the EU, because most EU countries have a very highly segregated system of long-distance and local trains. The UK does not operate that model, as a result other than E* and the HS2 captive trains there's little that fits.

 

[ainsworth74]

Won't "the terrorists" just target commuter trains instead then? Same net result in terms of casualties.

Actually I'd gamble the casualties would be heavier. Would the attacks on London in 2005 have been as effective in terms of casualties if they'd attacked a long distance GNER, VT and MML service rather than three tube trains?

Would the 2004 attack on the Madrid commuter network been as effective if it had targeted long distance RENFE services instead?

If anything commuter trains are more in need of protection than long distance services (Mumbai 2006 another set of attacks on commuter services) but I feel, as others have said, that this is a knee-jerk reaction to an attempted attack rather than a thought out move actively trying to improve security. A sop to the 'something must be done!' brigade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By the way, here's a rather more balanced article on the same thing from the Beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34054460
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually I'd gamble the casualties would be heavier. Would the attacks on London in 2005 have been as effective in terms of casualties if they'd attacked a long distance GNER, VT and MML service rather than three tube trains?

No, not even nearly. Long-distnace trains are long, thin and (generally) low density. Commuter trains are quite the opposite.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Can you imagine the chaos that would occur at Waterloo, with ~92m users at the last count if you wanted to security checks on all of them.

 

[najaB]

...I feel, as others have said, that this is a knee-jerk reaction to an attempted attack...

I thought the suspect has said it wasn't terrorism - he was just starving and decided to use the guns and knives that he found to rob people to get money to buy food?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the suspect has said it wasn't terrorism - he was just starving and decided to use the guns and knives that he found to rob people to get money to buy food?

If you believe that...

 

[ainsworth74]

No, not even nearly. Long-distnace trains are long, thin and (generally) low density. Commuter trains are quite the opposite.

Quite.

I thought the suspect has said it wasn't terrorism - he was just starving and decided to use the guns and knives that he found to rob people to get money to buy food?

An AK-47 seems something akin to overkill if your plan is to rob people of their money...

Plus an assault rifle seems a terrible choice of weapon for an enclosed space like a train unless your planning to spray bullets around the place. If you wish to maintain control something smaller like a pistol would seem a much better choice.

 

[najaB]

An AK-47 seems something akin to overkill if your plan is to rob people of their money...

Ah, but he just found it. Apparently. He should've tried the Shaggy defence "It wasn't me."

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah, but he just found it. Apparently. He should've tried the Shaggy defence "It wasn't me."

You know it's the bane of my life. I'm minding my own business walking down the street and I just keep tripping over AK-47s! Really annoying

 

[thenorthern]

They did it at Nottingham station on and off about 10 years ago and they caught a few passengers with knives although at the time Nottingham did have a bad reputation for violent crime.

When I was in Shenzhen, China recently I was surprised as they scanned all bags before you were allowed into the "paid areas of the stations" (beyond the ticket barriers).

If I was manning these security gates though I would want an armed police officer on duty to oversea the scanning as I wouldn't want approach someone who is carrying a concealed weapon without it.

 

[Carlisle]

I think it Spain where they already scan passengers and X Ray luggage on long distance Inter City Trains, they have all the equipment at Malaga and Cadiz if I remember rightly.

Yes I've seen that at Alicante also

 

[edwin_m]

Quite.



An AK-47 seems something akin to overkill if your plan is to rob people of their money...

Plus an assault rifle seems a terrible choice of weapon for an enclosed space like a train unless your planning to spray bullets around the place. If you wish to maintain control something smaller like a pistol would seem a much better choice.

It is claimed he was also viewing a jihadist video over the train wi-fi a few minutes before, which seems an odd choice of viewing for a robber.

Maybe we should ban wi-fi too [joke].
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite.

If it did happen (and SNCF have already rubbished it, and they are quite influential) I would probably give up rail travel and just drive everywhere. With planes, you can take pointy things etc on if you want, just check them in. With E* you can't, because there is no proper checked baggage service. One of the many reasons I prefer flying over E*.

I like rail, but not if I'd have to waste an hour queueing and have my privacy invaded each time I used it. I tolerate it for air because it's so much quicker than other modes and it's only once in a while.

Eurostar doesn't ban liquids and the pointy things restrictions are much less severe than on planes.

http://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/travel-planning/luggage/prohibited-items-and-alcohol

On the other hand, unlike any airline I have ever flown on, it is forbidden to bring a dishwasher on board...

The important distinction here is that it's relatively speaking very easy to bring down an aircraft with a small quantity of explosive or take over it with a fairly rudimentary weapon, either of which could result in the death of all on board and possibly also many on the ground. The effects of doing the same on a train would be far less - it's not pressurised, the structure is much stronger, and even a high speed derailment is usually survivable for most passengers with little risk to others. Thus the security precautions around aircraft are and should be more stringent than for any train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Transec (Transport Security) already have powers to do this, as part of the response to the 7/7 attacks.
They have trialled equipment and processes at various stations (Euston was one I think).
They said it would not be feasible to lock down all stations and all trains but it's there as a capability as and when deemed necessary.
I've been on Renfe trains where they do this (because of the Madrid bombings) and it's a bit of a pain and takes time.
Less intrusive than air travel though - no shoes or belts off for instance.
It would stop the race down the ramp at Euston though.

 

[Darren R]

It would stop the race down the ramp at Euston though.

Every cloud...!