• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Crewe to Alsager single line section

Status
Not open for further replies.

railnerd

Member
Joined
16 Mar 2015
Messages
143
Location
Near where the above once stood
Hi.
Random question: Why is the first few miles of track to the east of Crewe towards Alsager singled?
Was it just a cost cutting excercise back in the day?

I know i should know the answer but i dont! :D
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Buttsy

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2011
Messages
1,365
Location
Hanborough
Hi.
Random question: Why is the first few miles of track to the east of Crewe towards Alsager singled?
Was it just a cost cutting excercise back in the day?

I know i should know the answer but i dont! :D

Simple answer - yes!
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,224
With two trains an hour, probably not needed. I was on the line today. A new road is being built under the single track section near Crewe - I wonder if the bridge is to double track standard?

What is the prospect of either of the services using this line being extended to Manchester Airport, to provide a link with Stoke? Trains could use platform 1 at Crewe in both directions without joining the WCML.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,043
Location
Stockport
With two trains an hour, probably not needed. I was on the line today. A new road is being built under the single track section near Crewe - I wonder if the bridge is to double track standard?

What is the prospect of either of the services using this line being extended to Manchester Airport, to provide a link with Stoke? Trains could use platform 1 at Crewe in both directions without joining the WCML.

I think there used to be an hourly service to Manchester Airport this way from Derby in Central Trains days using 170 Turbostars, can't remember when it finished though.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Hi.
Right. Now i have my in depth answer, did they regret singling it and do they wanna double it again?

It was singled during the Crewe remodelling in 1985.
They had no thought of services increasing, and Stoke was only 1tph.
I travelled on it last week and the single line uses the northern track throughout, with the southern track bed empty but seemingly usable.
Currently, a new link road is being built just east of Crewe and it's going to need some sizeable engineering to get under the Stoke line.
There is also what I think is a weak embankment around there which might have played a part in the singling decision.
I should think everything about Crewe is currently in the melting pot for HS2.
The remodelling simplified the station layout too much anyway.
 
Last edited:

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,752
Location
York
It was singled during the Crewe remodelling in 1985. ..... The remodelling simplified the station layout too much anyway.

Wasn't this another of the 1980s schemes that was reduced beyond the point of common sense in order to bring down costs to a level where authorisation would be given (like Leicester MAS, etc)?

I certainly understood that the original plans were for a significantly faster Manchester junction amongst other things. (It could never be fast, of course, but I heard that 40/45 could have been got rather than the present 20 which is actually significantly more restrictive than the former layout.)

Incidentally, does anyone know if anything has been done to improve the run in from the down fast to platform 6, for which the 1980s scheme provided some nicely restrictive approach control?

Also, wasn't it intended that the speed on the up and down fast lines through the station should be 100, but then someone discovered that the pillars supporting the roofs were too close to the tracks to allow that?
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
5,761
Location
Wilmslow
It gets interesting today when there are something like 8tph (passenger) plus maybe 1tph freight using the single line!
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
In the 80s, single stretches of line to save money although the line that remained had twice as much wear and tear, in addition to additional pointwork at start/end of single track sections or crossing points. I did read somewhere that it was to give the Government of the day the impression steps were being taken to reduce costs.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,043
Location
Stockport
In the 80s, single stretches of line to save money although the line that remained had twice as much wear and tear, in addition to additional pointwork at start/end of single track sections or crossing points. I did read somewhere that it was to give the Government of the day the impression steps were being taken to reduce costs.

Another example of what you say during the late 80s was the singling of the Heaton Norris - Guide Bridge line between Ash Bridge, through Reddish South to Denton, when a new bridge was required to take the line over the M60 motorway that was under construction near Denton at the time. The reason of course was to save money by only installing a single track deck, although it does appear when travelling on the motorway below that the supports would take a twin track deck if in the future it was decided it was warranted.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,844
Incidentally, does anyone know if anything has been done to improve the run in from the down fast to platform 6, for which the 1980s scheme provided some nicely restrictive approach control?

No, and its the same from Wilmslow and it is a killer. The up end of 6 could do with speeding up from 20 too. As said, nothing will happen until the HS2 plans are sorted.
 
Joined
14 Apr 2014
Messages
501
I think there used to be an hourly service to Manchester Airport this way from Derby in Central Trains days using 170 Turbostars, can't remember when it finished though.

It ran from Skegness to Manchester Airport, then was shortened from Nottingham, now just Derby to Crewe
 

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
370
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
I do not know the history of this line but the line should have been doubled as part of the WCML Modernisation programme.

Redoubling should considered as part of the HS2 proposals.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,043
Location
Stockport
It ran from Skegness to Manchester Airport, then was shortened from Nottingham, now just Derby to Crewe

Ah, cheers for that, I thought it may have come from beyond Derby, but couldn't remember where, do you know when it finished? IIRC it was lack of paths between Crewe and Wilmslow that was cited.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd

Ah, cheers for that, I thought it may have come from beyond Derby, but couldn't remember where, do you know when it finished? IIRC it was lack of paths between Crewe and Wilmslow that was cited.

Lack of people more like. Usually almost empty (a single 153) to the Airport.
I think it died when the WCRM upgrades were in progress and never came back.
A lot further back under BR, it was never more than a Crewe-Derby shuttle, apart from a few through summer workings from Derby to North Wales.
Central extended it east first to Nottingham, then Skegness/Cleethorpes, and also north to Manchester Airport.
The SRA then reduced it to Crewe-Derby again to "improve reliability" around Derby and Nottingham.
Northern added a Crewe-Manchester Airport service.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,547
I believe if you go back to the 80s and such it was a Crewe to Lincoln St Marks service largely using Swindon class 120s.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383


Ah, cheers for that, I thought it may have come from beyond Derby, but couldn't remember where, do you know when it finished? IIRC it was lack of paths between Crewe and Wilmslow that was cited.

In my experience the lack of passengers was also a factor.

:D
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,103
Hi.
Random question: Why is the first few miles of track to the east of Crewe towards Alsager singled?
Was it just a cost cutting excercise back in the day?

I know i should know the answer but i dont! :D

As others have said it was cost cutting by British Rail in the 1980s although there is still space for a second track if its required.

The single track was fine with just the local Derby train using it and most of the time its ok with the additional London Midland service although if either of them are delayed it can cause disruption. I remember leaving Crewe once and there was a train going into Crewe that broke down on the single track section going the other way and it took two hours to remove the broken down train so we could proceed.

I think there used to be an hourly service to Manchester Airport this way from Derby in Central Trains days using 170 Turbostars, can't remember when it finished though.

Skegness, for a time at least.

In my experience the lack of passengers was also a factor.

:D

The through Manchester Airport trains stopped in 2004 partly because if they were delayed reaching Crewe then it had a knock on effect on other trains because of pathing issues and partly because the paths were now needed for other trains as the WCML upgrade has just been completed. In the other direction the trains to Nottingham and beyond were removed in 2005, most of which ran though to Skegness although some instead ran to Lincoln Central or Cleethorpes. The stock was mostly Class 170s but 153s, 156s, 158s and very occasionally 150s were used on the line. When I was a child I used to have a nickname for each of the trains which sounds rather sad now.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,043
Location
Stockport
The through Manchester Airport trains stopped in 2004 partly because if they were delayed reaching Crewe then it had a knock on effect on other trains because of pathing issues and partly because the paths were now needed for other trains as the WCML upgrade has just been completed. In the other direction the trains to Nottingham and beyond were removed in 2005, most of which ran though to Skegness although some instead ran to Lincoln Central or Cleethorpes. The stock was mostly Class 170s but 153s, 156s, 158s and very occasionally 150s were used on the line. When I was a child I used to have a nickname for each of the trains which sounds rather sad now.

I'm glad you mentioned 170s had been used because I was 99.9% certain that a friend and I had travelled on one from Crewe bound for Manchester Airport, but I think we bailed at Wilmslow probably in order to take a 309 emu back to Birmingham New St when First NW operated an out and back evening service from Manchester, this must have been around 1999 give or take.
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,103
According to Real Time Trains this section of track is currently used for WCML diversions today, taking 11 coach Pendos as well as the regular services via Alsager must be a fun exercise.
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
According to Real Time Trains this section of track is currently used for WCML diversions today, taking 11 coach Pendos as well as the regular services via Alsager must be a fun exercise.

Think that was why the thread was started :)

Fun enough down here on the southern WCML with only 2 lines open, the people of Watford don't know what's hit them with only 2 trains an hour and no LM past Northampton direct!
 

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
I don't remember anyone reporting that redoubling would involve much expense. Would it?
Also the redoubling of the Reddish line, mentioned earlier. I see on Street View that crossing the M60 is no big deal, but are there other problems with that one?
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,844
What would the redoubling be for? If we can't deal with 4tph over a short bit of single track then we might as well all go home now.
 

ag51ruk

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2014
Messages
629
Redoubling was looked at when the line was electrified in the 2000s but I believe the cost of resignalling/lack of resourcing was the killer then.

If the Crewe - Manchester Airport trains had been allowed to stop at Wilmslow, that may have helped passenger numbers - the southbound train often had to wait in the station for ages anyway to get a path, but with the doors locked.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
What would the redoubling be for? If we can't deal with 4tph over a short bit of single track then we might as well all go home now.

Quite. It's only 3 miles after all.

Bit of a nuisance on weekends like this, but it hardly justifies the expense.
 

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
370
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
What would the redoubling be for? If we can't deal with 4tph over a short bit of single track then we might as well all go home now.

Improving connectivity

As I have said in my previous post HS2 is going to Crewe despite Stoke-On-Trent City Council wasting loads on HS2 and redoubling should be considered as part of the proposals regarding Crewe to improve connections etc especially throughout the Potteries as another poster mentioned the Potteries on another thread a while ago. This post expands on my previous post
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,844
Right ok, how many trains are you expecting as part of this and where from and to? Come back in 10 years and you might have a shout, but now? If they put the new Crewe station at Basford Hall then the existing line is in the wrong place anyway and there have already been fag packet drawings of diverting it.
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,103
Redoubling was looked at when the line was electrified in the 2000s but I believe the cost of resignalling/lack of resourcing was the killer then.

If the Crewe - Manchester Airport trains had been allowed to stop at Wilmslow, that may have helped passenger numbers - the southbound train often had to wait in the station for ages anyway to get a path, but with the doors locked.

Quite. It's only 3 miles after all.

Bit of a nuisance on weekends like this, but it hardly justifies the expense.

When the line was first electrified in 2003 the only services using the line was the hourly Central Trains service so the cost probably wasn't justified given the that there was still capacity there. After the the line was electrified I think there was a single Virgin Cross Country and an Arriva Trains Wales service that used the line each day. The London Midland service came in 2008.

I agree about Wilmslow, I often found it strange that Virgin Trains called at Wimlsow but Central Trains didn't. I remember now the through trains were withdrawn in 2003 after the WCML upgrade. For a very short period of time in 2001 there were some through trains to Liverpool Lime Street from Nottingham on Sundays only.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top