When is London not London?

[najaB]

I went to the ticket office today to purchase a Dundee to Brentwood Off-peak return ticket. I expected it to cost £151.70 but was surprised when the clerk said it was £141 and change.

Turns out there is a "not via London" fare for this route - Cue surprise from both of us: how do you avoid London? So the clerk tries an itinerary for this fare. The system spits out: Dundee, Edinburgh, Darlington, Derby, St Pancras, London Liverpool Street, Brentwood.

My English geography isn't the best but I'm pretty sure that St. Pancras, the tube and Liverpool Street are all in London.

I guess it's just a badly named fare, but why does it exist? It is priced by EC, but the only real difference is that it forces you off their service and down the MML.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Hmm, I'm not surprised - I've seen fares like this before, but the routing I encountered was a bit different. Using the MML, maybe changing to a local train at Luton or Luton Airport, then via West Hampstead Thameslink - West Hampstead - North London Line to Stratford - Brentwood - would pass the "not London test".

Not sure if staying on the ECML - local train from Peterborough or Stevenage - Finsbury Park - Victoria Line to Tottenham Hale - Stratford - Brentwood - would work because of the tube element. Although going between Finsbury Park and Stratford via Highbury and Islington (GN Electrics, then North London Line) would.

Not convinced that such a ticket would, or should, be valid for the route that you were suggested though. Surely indisputable that St Pancras and Liverpool Street are, by any definition, "London".

 

[Sacro]

Stevenage - Finsbury Park - Highbury and Islington - Stratford - Brentwood.

Though if you can get a printed itinerary for the MML and tube then good luck, can't imagine it'd work the barriers!

 

[najaB]

Not convinced that such a ticket would, or should, be valid for the route that you were suggested though. Surely indisputable that St Pancras and Liverpool Street are, by any definition, "London".

Agreed, but that's the route that the system spat out and I've got the printout to prove it.

Edit: Just looked at the printout again - the clerk made a mistake when he asked for a journey plan, he didn't specify the ticket type. Sanity is restored.

 

[W-on-Sea]

and,ha, NRE brings up another route that avoids London

Dundee - Stevenage - Harringay - (walk) - Harringay Green Lanes - Wanstead Park - (walk) - Forest Gate - Brentwood

 

[gray1404]

You could excess the fare up and get the via London ticket if that will make it easier for you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Agreed, but that's the route that the system spat out and I've got the printout to prove it.
Edit: Just looked at the printout again - the clerk made a mistake when he asked for a journey plan, he didn't specify the ticket type. Sanity is restored.

The two tickets are not the same type, although both are off-peak.
The NOT LONDON is an SVR, the +LONDON is an SSR.
The time restrictions are different, though to/from Dundee it might not matter.
Basically the NOT LONDON route involves GN and LO between Stevenage and Stratford, to avoid King's Cross and Liverpool St.

 

[34D]

Does your EC train call at stevenage? If it doesn't I'd pay the extra £10. If it does, then enjoy the new layout at Finsbury Park and the overground route.

 

[yorkie]

It's only half the difference if you wish to excess it in one direction, and it's the same price on-board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...the only real difference is that it forces you off their service and down the MML.

While it is valid via the MML, you are not forced to do so. Indeed it would be more logical to change at Stevenage, Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington. This is quite possibly the shortest route.

Another alternative would be to go via Cambridge, though that would be quite time consuming, but perhaps less of a time penalty than using the MML.

 

[najaB]

Another alternative would be to go via Cambridge, though that would be quite time consuming, but perhaps less of a time penalty than using the MML.

In the end I bought the SSR but went via Derby anyway for a change of route (I've been doing Dundee-Brentwood a lot recently). It made sense to get the SSR so that the return journey can be via Euston and the WCML. I might try your suggestion of Cambridge next week, thanks.

 

[greatkingrat]

I guess it's just a badly named fare, but why does it exist? It is priced by EC, but the only real difference is that it forces you off their service and down the MML.

It is due to fare clusters, that fare applies to 60 odd stations on the outskirts of London. While not many people will go Dundee - Brentwood avoiding London, it is a more sensible route for other stations in the cluster like Hatfield, St Albans, Harlow etc.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It is due to fare clusters, that fare applies to 60 odd stations on the outskirts of London. While not many people will go Dundee - Brentwood avoiding London, it is a more sensible route for other stations in the cluster like Hatfield, St Albans, Harlow etc.

I don't agree with this; none of those stations are actually in the relevant cluster (unless you mean Hatfield Peverel?)! See here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=DEE&dest=BRE

Flow Origin: R666	
Cluster
0411 SOUTHEND STNS	6846 WHITE NOTLEY	6872 BRENTWOOD		6891 WICKFORD
2053 BRAINTREE FRPORT	6850 CLACTON-ON-SEA	6873 BURNHAM ON C	6892 SOUTH WOODHAM F
4787 SOUTHEND AIRPORT	6854 FRINTON-ON-SEA	6875 NORTH FAMBRIDGE	7419 PRITTLEWELL
6801 BRAINTREE		6857 THORPE LE SOKEN	6880 HOCKLEY		7446 LEIGH ON SEA
6836 CHELMSFORD ESSEX	6858 WALTON-ON-NAZE	6882 INGATESTONE	7455 SHOEBURYNESS
6837 CRESSING ESSEX	6862 KIRBY CROSS	6884 RAYLEIGH		7457 SOUTHEND EAST
6838 KELVEDON		6869 ALTHORNE ESSEX	6885 ROCHFORD		7460 THORPE BAY
6844 WITHAM		6870 BATTLESBRIDGE	6888 SHENFIELD		7469 CHALKWELL
6845 HATFIELD PEVEREL	6871 BILLERICAY		6890 SOUTHMINSTER	7476 WESTCLIFF

I think it's an error, or at a stretch was intended to allow travel via Cambridge and Ipswich, but I'm not sure that's a very reasonable route...

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't agree with this; none of those stations are actually in the relevant cluster (unless you mean Hatfield Peverel?)! See here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=DEE&dest=BRE

[/QUOTE]

Yes, you're right, I was looking at the cluster below the fare (T254), instead of the one above the fare.

 

[najaB]

I think it's an error, or at a stretch was intended to allow travel via Cambridge and Ipswich, but I'm not sure that's a very reasonable route...

I'll let you know how I get on when I try it on Sunday.