Oyster at Dartford from 6/9/15

[MikeWh]

Southeastern have confirmed on their website that Oyster will be accepted at Dartford from the start of the new fares round next Sunday. I have posted predictions of the actual fares on my site, but will confirm them as soon as I can talk to someone at TfL.

 

[Starmill]

This sounds good.

Please do update if you receive confirmation that Dartford has joined a 'real' Zone or not!

 

[blakey1152]

Its great news. It will be interesting to see how it will actually work in practice.

I am thinking along the lines of people like myself who have a zonal Travelcard on Oyster and pre-pay and with Dartford now "Oysterable" would they have pink validators on the platforms to enable people to pay a via Dartford fare?

Or will it effectively become a "free" interchange point?

I make a regular journeys from Slade Green to Sidcup (using a direct train) with my zone 4-6 Travelcard but from 6th September I could if I so choose go Via Dartford but without a pink reader there isn't anyway of them being able to distinguish whether or not I escaped out of my zonal restrictions!

Blakey
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One afterthought...
Just hoping that Dartford doesn't become a special station like Stratford International has and that the fares paid are included in any daily/weekly cap!!

Blakey

 

[34D]

Isn't the point of pink validators to reduce ones fair, not increase it?

I'd like to think that Dartford would be added to either zone 7 or zone G or zone W myself. Other views?

 

[yorkie]

Its great news. It will be interesting to see how it will actually work in practice.

I am thinking along the lines of people like myself who have a zonal Travelcard on Oyster and pre-pay and with Dartford now "Oysterable" would they have pink validators on the platforms to enable people to pay a via Dartford fare?

There are no fares which could be reduced by use of a pink validator, due to both the existence of the curve avoiding Dartford. So there would be no point installing pink readers.

Or will it effectively become a "free" interchange point?

There is no penalty for interchange; you're charged for the journey from origin to destination.

I make a regular journeys from Slade Green to Sidcup (using a direct train) with my zone 4-6 Travelcard but from 6th September I could if I so choose go Via Dartford but without a pink reader there isn't anyway of them being able to distinguish whether or not I escaped out of my zonal restrictions!

You are permitted to go outside your zones on a Travelcard held on Oyster providing you ensure you touch in at the start of your journey, and out at the end of your journey (and, obviously, have sufficient PAYG balance to cover any potential charges). If you remain within the system and don't touch anywhere outside the zones, you are likely to be given the benefit of any doubt in most cases.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't the point of pink validators to reduce ones fare, not increase it?

True. That is the purpose of them, to indicate that you are avoiding Zone 1.

However pink readers can also touch you in if you're not already touched in. and I believe this can have the side effect of triggering an additional charge for Travelcard holders outside their zones.

The holders of Travelcards including Zone 1 do not need to touch them, and would see no benefit in doing so. Someone made a journey from somewhere like Turnham Green to Clapham Jn (or similar) on a Zones 1-2 Travelcard. They were charged the extra fare for Zone 3 if they touched the pink reader at Richmond, and were not charged any extra if they did not.

I note the wording of TfL's pink card readers page gets across the message that a pink reader is intended to reduce the fare. See quote below:

Pink card readers at some Tube and London Overground stations tell us which route you've taken so we can charge you the right fare. Some routes are cheaper than others, such as those which avoid Zone 1.

When to use the pink card readers

If you're using pay as you go or have a Travelcard that doesn't include Zone 1, you may need to touch on a pink card reader when changing trains at one of the stations listed below to pay the right fare.....

....If you don't touch on a pink card reader:

• You might pay a higher pay as you go fare, that includes Zone 1
• If you're using a Travelcard, which does not include Zone 1 you might be charged an extension fare....

 

[user15681]

Dartford will be in Zone 8.

 

[Starmill]

Excellent. So, along with Brentwood, 2 new stations have joined the area which one can use a Z1-9 Day Travelcard to travel to with.

 

[MikeWh]

Dartford will be in Zone 8.

Well this is incredibly frustrating. Called the TfL helpline and asked about Oyster to Dartford and was told it's happening sometime before December 2016. Talked them through getting to the page on the southeastern website and they said "oh! well Dartford is their station so they must know". I asked again about prices and they eventually put me through to NRE who explained that if you put a date in from Sunday you'll get the Oyster prices. I asked if Dartford was to be part of a zone and was told, no, it will just be a station in Kent.

Phrases with left hand and right hand come to mind.

 

[blakey1152]

Oddly, I called up Southeastern and after a 20 minute wait on the phone (Despite being number 2 in the queue!) I got through to a very nice chap who said at first he was under the impression that Oyster wasn't going to be accepted until December.

He then went and saw the thing on the web site but didn't have any further information but did imply it was going to be similar to Stratford International and initially at least Dartford wouldn't be in a zone but like Stratford it would just allow a different form of payment for the fare - in this case Oyster.

He also added there that there was talk of putting Dartford in a zone - possibly either 7 or 8 but that wouldn't happen initially.

So it appears that in true Southeastern style - noone has a clue as to what is actually happening - and I kind of suspect that rather like their train services that the 6th September might get delayed due to the wrong kind of reader on the track...

 

[plcd1]

TfL have now issued a press release re Oyster to Dartford and pricing confirmed as being in Zone 8. Love the way it's spun as being TfL helping the people of Dartford to get lower fares etc and no mention of a SE Trains franchise commitment.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/contactless-payments-and-oyster-extended-to-dartfo

 

[ainsworth74]

TfL have now issued a press release re Oyster to Dartford and pricing confirmed as being in Zone 8. Love the way it's spun as being TfL helping the people of Dartford to get lower fares etc and no mention of a SE Trains franchise commitment.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/contactless-payments-and-oyster-extended-to-dartfo

Well that'll be because TfL have their eye on those SE services

Good news however and not before time! It's always struck me as being something an oddity that Dartford was outside the zones. Though I'm sure the SE RPIs that used to be able to camp out at Dartford will be unhappy

 

[Envy123]

Well that'll be because TfL have their eye on those SE services

Good news however and not before time! It's always struck me as being something an oddity that Dartford was outside the zones. Though I'm sure the SE RPIs that used to be able to camp out at Dartford will be unhappy

The last stop on the metro service not being in the zones was an oddity. Now, we wait for Epsom and WGC/Hertford.

 

[Mojo]

The Hertford East branch line will be added to PAYG Zone B (Broxbourne) in Mid October provisionally.

 

[kentman]

Will make the zone map look even more odd, but then the current one has the Shenfield line with zone 7 & 8 marked on it with no stations. And with Dartford the TFL bus validity goes all the way out to Bluewater.

The sooner it goes over to TFL the better.

 

[jon0844]

I can only see that TfL wants to take over the Hertford North/WGC inners in the long term, as otherwise it makes no sense.

 

[MikeWh]

Will make the zone map look even more odd, but then the current one has the Shenfield line with zone 7 & 8 marked on it with no stations.

OK, zone 9 isn't marked between Watford High Street and Watford Junction, but it's still there. How many stations are between Mill Hill Broadway (4) and Elstree & Borehamwood (6)? And C2C and Chiltern have huge chunks of empty zones on some of their lines, to say nothing of the Metropolitan having nothing in zone 3. It's really not that unusual.

And with Dartford the TFL bus validity goes all the way out to Bluewater.

TfL bus validity goes a long way in some directions. Bluewater, Redhill, Slough, Potters Bar. But it's all irrelevant because buses don't operate in zones. Any bus from Bluewater to Slough is valid with only a zone 1-2 travelcard.

The sooner it goes over to TFL the better.

Don't expect massive price reductions even if it does all go over to TfL. The ex-GA lines have told us that dirt cheap fares aren't going to happen if it will cause major splitting/abstraction opportunities.

 

[island]

So does that mean I can use the 0001 Crayford-Dartford service tomorrow?

What if I join it at Lewisham at 2338?

 

[Mojo]

So does that mean I can use the 0001 Crayford-Dartford service tomorrow?

What if I join it at Lewisham at 2338?

That service still runs on Saturday night

In reality, I would expect all Revenue staff to be tucked up in bed, and the barriers to be wide open

 

[island]

Will the Oyster pads on the gates work?

[at most half-serious]

 

[MikeWh]

Will the Oyster pads on the gates work?

[at most half-serious]

I would think there is quite a chance that the gates are already live, though as the Oyster day doesn't start until 0430, I'm not going to try it out.

 

[island]

I'd try it if I had a way of getting home from Dartford at reasonable expense afterwards, which I don't.

 

[ComUtoR]

Or will it effectively become a "free" interchange point?

I make a regular journeys from Slade Green to Sidcup (using a direct train) with my zone 4-6 Travelcard but from 6th September I could if I so choose go Via Dartford but without a pink reader there isn't anyway of them being able to distinguish whether or not I escaped out of my zonal restrictions!


Blakey

What do you mean by "free" ? Are you suggesting that its not actually free and as long as your not caught its ok ?

You are permitted to go outside your zones on a Travelcard held on Oyster providing you ensure you touch in at the start of your journey, and out at the end of your journey (and, obviously, have sufficient PAYG balance to cover any potential charges). If you remain within the system and don't touch anywhere outside the zones, you are likely to be given the benefit of any doubt in most cases.

Ok. Can you please explain how that is allowed ? Does "benefit of the doubt" suggest that Blakey isn't suppose to do it but due unless caught outside his zonal limits its ok ?

If I had a 1-6 zone oyster but was on a train outside zone 6 how do I have a valid ticket ? If so, How far outside my zone am I allowed to travel ?

If I went from Slade Green (Z6) on a train to Gillingham. Then got a train to Bromley South (Z5) That would be acceptable and I would only be charged Slade Green - Bromley South ? If I went from Stockwell to South Bermondsey (both Z2) Am I allowed to go Via London Bridge if I only had a Z2 travelcard ?

 

[island]

A paper Travelcard must be valid in all the zones you travel in. A Travelcard held on Oyster gives you the option to travel to other stations that are covered by Oyster but not included in the zones on your Travelcard, as long as you have touched in and have sufficient pay as you go credit.

If I had a 1-6 zone oyster but was on a train outside zone 6 how do I have a valid ticket ? If so, How far outside my zone am I allowed to travel ?

No.

If I went from Slade Green (Z6) on a train to Gillingham. Then got a train to Bromley South (Z5) That would be acceptable and I would only be charged Slade Green - Bromley South ?

No. You would have no ticket from Stone Crossing to Swanley and would be liable for a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

If I went from Stockwell to South Bermondsey (both Z2) Am I allowed to go Via London Bridge if I only had a Z2 travelcard ?

There is no such thing as a Z2 Travelcard.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers Island.

I'm a touch confused though.

If I only have a 1-6 Zone card why am I allowed to travel to Dartford which would be outside the my zone ? You said no to my first example so I'm a little confused why I'm outside so you say no but then say otherwise ?

Is it because Dartford will be an Oyster Zone so vaild to change at but I would have to touch in at Dartford before traveling to another station within my zone ? If I didn't tap out at Dartford would I be liable for fare evasion ?

I assume that you citing no for stone crossing to swanley is because its outside of the Oyster area ?

I checked on the tfl website and found a Zone 2 only travelcard costs £24.10 ? is that not a valid travelcard ?

 

[ainsworth74]

If you have any sort of travelcard loaded onto Oyster and wish to travel outside of your valid zones then you need to touch in and out at the start and end of your journey and have sufficient PAYG balance on the card. The system will then charge the appropriate fare.

So if I held a Zones 1-6 travelcard on my Oyster and then travelled from Zone 1 to 7 I should be charged a Zone 6 to 7 PAYG fare as I already have a ticket for Zones 1 to 6.

The key here is that you must touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end if you're going to travel outside of your zones.

 

[ComUtoR]

But if I go from Slade Green to Sidcup tapping in and out then I wouldn't need any PAYG credit as the system will never know what train I got. I would never get charged for going via Dartford.

If I travel from a Z6 station to another Z6 station but go via a Z7 station the same applies. How would it know ?

 

[MikeWh]

But if I go from Slade Green to Sidcup tapping in and out then I wouldn't need any PAYG credit as the system will never know what train I got. I would never get charged for going via Dartford.

If I travel from a Z6 station to another Z6 station but go via a Z7 station the same applies. How would it know ?

The system doesn't know. As long as you touch in at the start, touch out at the end, remain within the Oyster charging area and complete within the maximum journey time, you are legal. You cannot be off route within the Oyster system with a validated Oyster card.

Note that in the case of Dartford, paper tickets between any two of the three lines were already valid due to the three mile rule.

 

[yorkie]

But if I go from Slade Green to Sidcup tapping in and out then I wouldn't need any PAYG credit as the system will never know what train I got. I would never get charged for going via Dartford.

You do need PAYG credit to go out of your Zones, whether or not a charge is made (in this case there would be no charge made)

If I travel from a Z6 station to another Z6 station but go via a Z7 station the same applies. How would it know ?

The reason you need to both be touched in and have PAYG credit is because if you are found by a revenue protection inspector/officer outside your Zones and either not tapped in or without PAYG credit you can be issued a Penalty Fare.

By tapping in and having sufficient PAYG balance to pay for any potential charges, you are demonstrating intent to pay any fares due. In practice, there may not be any additional fare due but that won't be known until the passenger touches out.

I hope that clarifies.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sooooo if I find the cheapest travel card for my Oyster I can travel outside its zones without paying as long as I watch the maximum journey times ?

Island said a Z2 travel card doesn't exist but TFL says it does. Are Oyster travel cards different ? Can't I load a single zone travelcard onto my Oyster ?

Cheers as always.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope that clarifies.

It does thanks.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sooooo if I find the cheapest travel card for my Oyster I can travel outside its zones without paying as long as I watch the maximum journey times ?

Yes but if you actually wanted to leave a station outside your zones you'd have to touch out and would then be charged the appropriate fare for that journey.