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Bi-Linugal Branding/station signs.

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johnnychips

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It intrigues me, slightly (and I put that word in because, as some other posters have said, it's not the most pressing issue in the world), why the Eurostar terminal at St Pancras has no signs or announcements in Dutch for Brussels trains, given that Brussels is a bilingual zone and more than half Belgium's population speaks Dutch rather than French. Of course those Dutch-speaking Belgians usually speak French and/or English rather well.

On the trains to Brussels itself, announcements are made in all three languages, and my friend and I amuse ourselves by trying to guess the native tongue of the person on the PA. We think it is mostly Dutch, a significant minority French and so far we think one English person.

Wonder what'll happen when the Amsterdam services are introduced?
 
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KeithP

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It also helps if those people making the signs have an understanding of the language.

_45162744_-2.jpg


The Welsh reads: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
 

rf_ioliver

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Not to mention the use of early Welsh in southwest Scotland, still obvious in place names such as the town where I live. Llyn llaith gau - the lake in the damp hollow. Given that Gaelic was not spoken hereabouts, the station sign would be better in Welsh!

And of course many place names in areas only slightly North of here are clearly Pictish in origin.

Most names in southern Scotland are of early Welsh origin, eg: Glasgow (Glas Coed). You can even see this with places in deepest South East England too, eg: Dover from Y Dwfr, meaning The Water.

So, I guess if you really want to be pedantic, all signs on these islands should be bilingual in Welsh and English/Pictish as appropriate

:)

Ian
 

backontrack

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Scots should have bilingual signage IMO. No problem with that.

dubscottie, what's your problem about calling it 'slang'? It's as valid as any language. You may not speak it, but a good deal of your countrymen/women do.
 

thenorthern

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As others have said Southall has signs in English and Punjabi but are there any other stations with bi-lingual signage in languages that aren't native to the United Kingdom?
 

pdeaves

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As others have said Southall has signs in English and Punjabi but are there any other stations with bi-lingual signage in languages that aren't native to the United Kingdom?

Yes. Levenshulme (Arabic); Irlam (Chinese?); North Berwick (German); Bicester North and Moreton in Marsh (Japanese); Tilbury Riverside (Russian); St Pancras International and Ashford International (French).

See this link: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/bilingual.shtm posted earlier.
 

Bookd

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Belgians going to Brussels will be used to it only being in French as that is their own railway practice. If you take a train from, say, Gent the announcements will be in Flemish and the train going to Brussel Sud and Lijk. On crossing the language barrier the announcements change to French and the stations to Bruxelles Midi and Liege.
If you want to take a train from Antwerpen to Lille in France you would need one to Rijsel (the Flemish name) with no mention of Lille until you cross the border. On the return trip take a train to Anvers, which becomes Antwerpen on entering Belgium.
 
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Groningen

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In eastern part of Germany there seems to be still 2 language signs on the platform; German and Lower Sorbian.

blb02jnoq7.jpg


Brussel Sud and Lijk

Brussel Zuid and Luik
 
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Chouette

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Not to mention the use of early Welsh in southwest Scotland, still obvious in place names such as the town where I live. Llyn llaith gau - the lake in the damp hollow. Given that Gaelic was not spoken hereabouts, the station sign would be better in Welsh!
That would be Cumbric, rather than Welsh - another Brythonic language, now sadly lost to time.
 

Groningen

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How many UK nationals can speak and know the dutch language on the railways? Less than 10?!
 

VisualAcid

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I've never understood why bilingual signs get some people so angry

The signs are okay. The announcements and the rotating between English and Welsh on the departure screens are just damn irritating especially if you're in a bit of a rush.
 

Argosy

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For a start Scots is a dialect or language variant of English. Welsh and Cornish are NOT Gaelic languages, but Brythionic languages. The 5 you've listed are together Celtic languages. There's quite a big linguistic difference between the two groups.

In the UK there are a number of indigenous languages, in particular the UK has three living and "official" languages: Scots Gaelic, Welsh and English. Irish in Northern Ireland and Cornish have a slightly different statuses.

Where do we stop? Well, there's a common sense answer which is to use those languages which are official and living in those areas to service to/from those areas. So on trains in and to/from Wales I'd expect to hear Welsh and English; similarly on Scottish services, though that poses a different problem in that Scots Gaelic is much more confined to certain areas than Welsh is for example. There really is no problem with multiple language usage and if GWR wish to use Cornish on services to Cornwall as a method of promotion then that's fine. Similarly use of Scots on lowland Scottish services if Scotrail or whoever so wish.

Use of other languages can be considered for certain purposes, eg: Latin and Urdu have been used on railway signage, but the cases here are very specific-

But the Gaelic thing is a bit of a nonsense. It is fine going up the West Highland line but its introduction into south west Scotland just shows how ignorant Transport Scotland are. The Gaelic that was spoken here was a totally different dialect from that in the Western Isles. It has more in common with Manx and Ulster Irish. We had Galwegian Gaelic as opposed to Highland/Scottish Gaelic. The last native Gaelic speaker died out in 1760. On that basis we might as well have bi-lingual signs in French.

This is the trouble with a nationalist Government up here. They are trying to push anything that is anti-English just as in the Republic of Ireland, where I do wonder why they changed to kms? I was hoping they might also change the side of the road they drive on and just await the chaos at border crossings....

In Scotland a more appropriate bi-lingual language would be Scots and English. Mind given the sometimes incomprehensible nature of some of our inner centre brethren I'm not sure sub-titles might not be more useful.

A few 'corkers' for those not used to the different tones up here.

Generally in Scotland there is no letter J (jay) they pronounce it 'Ji' as in die

Irvine on the ScotRail announcements comes out as Oven and Ayr as Ear.

The rest is mainly dialect and here there is quite a similarity with geordie. So if you've liived in Newcastle the transition 'alang d' rudd' shouldn't be too much of a problem.

My personal favourite is Carlisle. Southerners say Car-ly-ul, Scots say Cu-ly-ul and Cumbrians Carr-lile. Me I'm with the Cumbrians.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No need to refer to Gaelic as Scottish Gaelic. There's no other Gaelic. Irish is Gaeilge, often referred to mistakenly as Gaelic.

Sorry, I'm splitting hairs now. I'm all for bi-lingual signs, regardless of the language. As long as English is on it, what's the issue, politics aside?

You are wrong there. Also spoken in the Highands it is pronounced Gall-ic, (as in galley) in Ireland it is Gay-lic.
 
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Pigeon

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Most names in southern Scotland are of early Welsh origin, eg: Glasgow (Glas Coed). You can even see this with places in deepest South East England too, eg: Dover from Y Dwfr, meaning The Water.

So, I guess if you really want to be pedantic, all signs on these islands should be bilingual in Welsh and English/Pictish as appropriate

:)

Ian

See me, I'd be all for that (although some places would end up with name signs six feet high to get all the alternatives in). It appeals to the language nerd elements in my makeup. It would be fascinating. Every new town I visited would be like the Linlithgow/Glasgow explanations posted here and food for thought. I can't ever see there being more than a handful of people in favour though...
 

fairysdad

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It also helps if those people making the signs have an understanding of the language.

_45162744_-2.jpg


The Welsh reads: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
When I first saw that, I said that it was fully the fault of the translator that this happened. After all, if your job is to translate from one language to another, it's sensible to think that the people sending you emails won't understand Welsh, so why is your auto-response in that language?
 

cb a1

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This is the trouble with a nationalist Government up here. They are trying to push anything that is anti-English just as in the Republic of Ireland, where I do wonder why they changed to kms? I was hoping they might also change the side of the road they drive on and just await the chaos at border crossings....
AIUI, the bi-lingual signing of railway stations* was written into the First Scotrail Franchise Agreement when Tavish Scott was Transport Minister under the [pro-union] government of Labour / Lib Dem but why let facts get in the way.

*AIUI, when a station was re-furbished and the signs renewed, the new signs would be bi-lingual. Hence, this was seen as a virtually no cost, non-controversial** amendment to the franchise agreement.

**I am led to believe that this was one of the most controversial things done.
 

Johnuk123

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That's somewhat racist. While I don't doubt that someone in the UK who doesn't know English will have a very hard time, there are many people for whom English is not their mother tongue, and it is frankly a very hard language to learn. If it helps them to have forms and things available in a language they are more fluent in, then I'm all for it.

I also note that your stance means that all the French signs at St Pancras would have to be ripped out...

Throwing the racist jibe around is slightly worrying.
 
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najaB

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AIUI, the bi-lingual signing of railway stations* was written into the First Scotrail Franchise Agreement when Tavish Scott was Transport Minister under the [pro-union] government of Labour / Lib Dem but why let facts get in the way.
Any chance you could find it in the 2004 franchise agreement? I had a look and can't find it. My understanding is that originally it was only at stations in the Highlands, and it is only since about 2010 that they started appearing at other stations.
 

Chouette

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My personal favourite is Carlisle. Southerners say Car-ly-ul, Scots say Cu-ly-ul and Cumbrians Carr-lile. Me I'm with the Cumbrians.
That's because we Cumbrians know that it's Caer Luel, the fort of Leul. Presumably it sounded different in Gaelic.

However, I never worked out why "Mirehouse" is prounced My-russ. There's a lot of names like that in Cumbria, where the spelling and pronunciation seem barely related.
 

berneyarms

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No need to refer to Gaelic as Scottish Gaelic. There's no other Gaelic. Irish is Gaeilge, often referred to mistakenly as Gaelic.

Sorry, I'm splitting hairs now. I'm all for bi-lingual signs, regardless of the language. As long as English is on it, what's the issue, politics aside?

I'm going to be picky too here.

I have never heard the Irish language referred to when writing/speaking in English as anything but "Irish".

Indeed the Junior and Leaving Certificate Exam (Irish State exams) results pages refer to it as "Irish" when the paper names in English are shown.

The term "Gaeilge" is only used when already writing/speaking in Irish (as Gaeilge).

I've never heard the language described as "Gaelic" by any Irish people - only by English people.
 

Railsigns

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*AIUI, when a station was re-furbished and the signs renewed, the new signs would be bi-lingual. Hence, this was seen as a virtually no cost, non-controversial** amendment to the franchise agreement.

At least five ScotRail stations have had all their new signs replaced in the last couple of years, just to amend the Gaelic spellings. That's not cost neutral.
 

Phil from Mon

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The signs are okay. The announcements and the rotating between English and Welsh on the departure screens are just damn irritating especially if you're in a bit of a rush.

If you live in Wales you'd have to be very disengaged not to realise fairly quickly what the Welsh place names are - lots of them are very similar to the English anyway. Platfform sounds exactly the same as platform, the most numbers you need to get around would be 6 (phonetically een, die, tree, pedwar, pimp, kwech) at Caerdydd, and Trenau Arriva Cymru is pretty self-evident.
 

Phil from Mon

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It's more of a problem for those of us who only visit occasionally.
True, but even the occasional visitor should be able to at least get a handle on it fairly easily, and many who live here (thinking some local bus drivers now) seem to be deliberately disengaged.
 
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Michael.Y

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It's more of a problem for those of us who only visit occasionally.

Which is why everything is done in English as well. In a different colour. At the same x-height. On the same sign. In fact, CIS is in English only, so English has the advantage at all Welsh stations.

Also, anyone else notice the irony that a thread complaining about other languages can't even spell bilingual in English properly?
 

edwin_m

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In fact, CIS is in English only, so English has the advantage at all Welsh stations.

Not so last time I was in Cardiff - they just alternated, and where the list of calling points was too long for one screen they had four to work round. If it is desired to have CIS in two languages then someone should pay for having duplicate screens, preferably with different colour schemes too.
 

cb a1

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Any chance you could find it in the 2004 franchise agreement? I had a look and can't find it. My understanding is that originally it was only at stations in the Highlands, and it is only since about 2010 that they started appearing at other stations.
I'm only going off what I was told (hence the AIUI). In the context of what I was told, I assume it would have been a change to the agreement as it came into effect round about 2005 / 2006.

*This wasn't just some random person, but someone involved in the decision at the time. We were discussing it in the run up to the referendum as it was being touted around as an SNP policy**.

**If it were the SNP promoting bilingual signing, they would have brought in Scots rather than Gaelic.
 

Michael.Y

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Not so last time I was in Cardiff - they just alternated, and where the list of calling points was too long for one screen they had four to work round. If it is desired to have CIS in two languages then someone should pay for having duplicate screens, preferably with different colour schemes too.

Sorry I was referring to the actual platform information boards. The departure and arrival boards are, as you say bilingual and seem to rotate at different intervals, which can be a bit annoying.
 
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