Working Timetable Data

[43106]

For over 20 years, I have given myself the task of re-designing certain parts of the current Passenger Timetable (PTT) to "Clockface" timing, and increasing the frequency of services. I've confined myself to what approximates to the "InterCity" network. In modern parlance, this means Tables 26 (NatExpress East Coast, Hull Trains, GCR), 51- Cross Country (except for short distance stuff, like Nottingham - Cardiff), 53 (ex-Midland MainLine), 65 (Virgin West Coast) and 125, 126 & 135 (Long Distance Great Western).

I've come up with a load of ideas & suggestions, but every single one of them fall down on their duffs because I am missing vital data, which I can only get from a Working Timetable (WTT).

The actual data I'm after is timing information. Mostly, it's the time when a train passes through a station (without stopping), or an important junction (e.g. Marshgate, Temple Hirst, South Kirby - there are many others) or where a line reduces from a double to a single (e.g. Perth - Inverness in several places, the Menai Bridge). I have actually timed many journeys between Kings Cross and Edinburgh, but actual timings compared to planned timings are 2 different stories.

Is there anyone out there that can help? Could someone lift WTT data without putting themselves at risk? I am well aware that the WTT is classified (by NR) as a 'confidential' document, not for the eyes of the Great Unwashed Joe Public. However, the information I'm after pertains to services that are already advertised in the PTT. The WTT actually gives slightly more accurate timings than those in the PTT, usually arriving earlier and leaving later than advertised. I also managed to lift some stuff off the NR web-site, such as "Rules of the Route". There was other material that was available to potential contract bidders, but that vanished before I could download it.

If anyone is interested in discussing improving the timetable, or having a laugh at my ideas, let me know!

43106 - the Ivatt 4MT, NOT a 125 power car.

 

[AlexS]

see your pms.

 

[43106]

see your pms.

I'd love to Alex, but as THIS post is only my 2nd, I can't read it. I've got to post another 3 times after this BEFORE I can. It's not me, it's the forum rules. Sorry, but it should still be there when number 5 goes up!

43106

 

[Guinness]

Have a look at the Network Rail site for something called 'Rules of Route Plan' or something similar, gives you information on Headways, timing points and Station Dwell times and other useful information. It's in the Public Publication so it's perfectly legal.

 

[43106]

Have a look at the Network Rail site for something called 'Rules of Route Plan' or something similar, gives you information on Headways, timing points and Station Dwell times and other useful information. It's in the Public Publication so it's perfectly legal.

This is the data I referred to earlier - I called it 'Rules of the Route', but it's the same thing. It does give a lot of info, such as Dwell Times for different types of train, but I couldn't find any data on timings. As an example, between two adjacent stations (e.g. Macclesfield & Congleton), I'd like to know the time of travel between the two if they stopped at none, one or both stations in both directions. This would be different for different stock (e.g. Voyager or Pendolino). Am I making sense, or do you want a better explanation?

 

[MKempster]

I think your after Sectional Running Times which are confidential again and not generally available as they are all in the programs which are used to plan the timetable. I think but would need to find out whether Network Rail is responsible for this information as I don't think it is the TOCs or FOCs.

I hope this helps.

 

[43106]

I think your after Sectional Running Times which are confidential again and not generally available as they are all in the programs which are used to plan the timetable. I think but would need to find out whether Network Rail is responsible for this information as I don't think it is the TOCs or FOCs.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for that Mr. Kempster - Sectional Running Times ARE available (to some degree) AND NR is responsible for them, but, as a non-railway professional, a lot of it goes over my head. There's a family of documents called "Rules of the Plan" available on the NR site - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse/documents/rules of the route/outrotp8/ln08p.pdf probably covers the area where you live. I couldn't get it to open, so go to the NR site, type in "Rules of the Plan" (including quotes) into the Search box, click on 'Search' and VOILA! If it doesn't open, send me a P.M. and I can send the actual .pdf file via conventional e-mail. I managed to download ALL of the NR area some months ago.

43106

 

[Guinness]

This is the data I referred to earlier - I called it 'Rules of the Route', but it's the same thing. It does give a lot of info, such as Dwell Times for different types of train, but I couldn't find any data on timings. As an example, between two adjacent stations (e.g. Macclesfield & Congleton), I'd like to know the time of travel between the two if they stopped at none, one or both stations in both directions. This would be different for different stock (e.g. Voyager or Pendolino). Am I making sense, or do you want a better explanation?

Aha - I get what you mean, unfortunately I can't help you in this department I'm afraid!

 

[ungreat]

Check pm 43106

 

[MKempster]

Thanks for that Mr. Kempster - Sectional Running Times ARE available (to some degree) AND NR is responsible for them, but, as a non-railway professional, a lot of it goes over my head. There's a family of documents called "Rules of the Plan" available on the NR site - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse/...otp8/ln08p.pdf probably covers the area where you live. I couldn't get it to open, so go to the NR site, type in "Rules of the Plan" (including quotes) into the Search box, click on 'Search' and VOILA! If it doesn't open, send me a P.M. and I can send the actual .pdf file via conventional e-mail. I managed to download ALL of the NR area some months ago.

43106

Cheers for that but i have access to all that information myself. Due to the fact that most of the TOC and FOC use specially designed programs to plan their train services most of the SRTs are never seen as the computer program does all the work for the planners. The items you see in Rules of the Plan are there for restriction to the SRT such as Junction Margins, Headways, etc... Most of that information for this will be in the line of route information. This is where things such as box time and pathing time are used.

 

[The Planner]

SRTs are calculated by us in NR, TOCs and FOCs have nothing to do with the process (and quite frankly we wouldnt want them anywhere near it !!). They are all held in two internal train planning systems and as far as Im aware not for public consumption (so dont ask me for any!). The TOCs and FOCs get an export from our systems once a week to update the programs they use.

Rules of the Route and Rules of the Plan are two distinct documents. RotR cover the engineering blocks and, as previously mention, RotP covers all the stuff we have to adhere to when planning trains.

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like you should apply for a job at NR!! There are at least two members who work in train planning on this forum that I can think of who may be able to advise.

 

[Mojo]

Is there ever a case where the Rules of the Plan can be not adhered to? A while ago we were told our timetable for the Severn Beach Line was unworkable because RotP gave a 5 minute Turnaround allowance at Temple Meads for DMUs. In the new timetable, however, there are a number of two minute turnarounds.

I have just been reminded to check RotP by this thread and both the 2008 and the 2009 preliminary proposal both still say a 5 minute turnaround.

 

[43106]

Sounds like you should apply for a job at NR!!

Who? Me? I'd love to, but I'm too old (54) and this kind of stuff is done in York and/or Leeds, and I ain't relocating from Edinburgh!!!

There are at least two members who work in train planning on this forum that I can think of who may be able to advise.

I have a feeling that both of them have already contributed to this thread. If so, I wish they could contribute more, especially to some spreadsheets I've got set up!
On a serious note, the information I'm after mostly appears in the PTT, but they are times rounded up/down. I'm specifically after the time a train passes THROUGH a station and/or junction, particularly the latter (for conflict reasons). How can NR take offence at such innocent information?
Also, are there any theoretical timings? If AXC, say, propose an Aberdeen - Birmingham service, via Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Coatbridge, Motherwell then down the WCML to Brum, could NR come back with a provisional WTT for it? It's just that I've got a few ideas that aren't in the PTT.

43106

 

[The Planner]

Is there ever a case where the Rules of the Plan can be not adhered to? A while ago we were told our timetable for the Severn Beach Line was unworkable because RotP gave a 5 minute Turnaround allowance at Temple Meads for DMUs. In the new timetable, however, there are a number of two minute turnarounds.

I have just been reminded to check RotP by this thread and both the 2008 and the 2009 preliminary proposal both still say a 5 minute turnaround.

Technically you can't break RotP values, but if both TOC/FOC and NR agree a value and agree where the delay minutes go when/if it goes tits up then you can normally sneak it through.

Have you agreed a 2 minute turnaround with us for the Severn Beach trains ?? if thats the case then FGW must be ok with it. With that sort of short distance train then its just a case of driver changing ends. If he wants a PNB then its a different story I suppose. Id have thought it was trying to get the things a path up to Narroways Hill that causes that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who? Me? I'd love to, but I'm too old (54) and this kind of stuff is done in York and/or Leeds, and I ain't relocating from Edinburgh!!!


I have a feeling that both of them have already contributed to this thread. If so, I wish they could contribute more, especially to some spreadsheets I've got set up!
On a serious note, the information I'm after mostly appears in the PTT, but they are times rounded up/down. I'm specifically after the time a train passes THROUGH a station and/or junction, particularly the latter (for conflict reasons). How can NR take offence at such innocent information?
Also, are there any theoretical timings? If AXC, say, propose an Aberdeen - Birmingham service, via Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Coatbridge, Motherwell then down the WCML to Brum, could NR come back with a provisional WTT for it? It's just that I've got a few ideas that aren't in the PTT.

43106

Write to the Train Planning Manager in the Leeds office (nothing is done in York). Be careful about what you think is a conflict though, because it might not be in our eyes !! WCML is pretty much set in stone now for a long while and I cant see it being changed. With your AXC question, AXC would come up with their own times for it and we would validate it and tell them whether its a goer or not. TOCs/FOCs tend to think other peoples trains will move for them though a lot of the time.....

 

[me123]

If AXC, say, propose an Aberdeen - Birmingham service, via Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Coatbridge, Motherwell then down the WCML to Brum, could NR come back with a provisional WTT for it? It's just that I've got a few ideas that aren't in the PTT.

Wish they would; no bias based on my location of course Just so long as they used the HSTs on it...

 

[jv3531]

With regards to the turnaround times at Temple Meads and other locations for that matter, don't forget that WTTs often have extra pathing allowances for recovery time in them anyway, especially when compared to the PTT. A fine example of this is Paddington to Cheltenham services, which only take around 8 minutes for completion of the journey but are allowed sometimes 20 minutes or more. This is usually done so that it allows the train to make up time should any loss occur and then not be as late on arrival at its final destination, a figure which is used to calculate refunds and penaltys. The lower turn arround time may look as though it won't work on paper but in practice usually does. The other point to remember is that these "short" turn around times are often covered by a crew change so a fresh driver & guard would be there waiting to releive incoming train crew and thus expedite departue.

 

[43106]

Write to the Train Planning Manager in the Leeds office (nothing is done in York). Be careful about what you think is a conflict though, because it might not be in our eyes!!

I've already done that! I chanced my arm about 11 months ago when I fired a request into the NR web-site. After a circuitous route, presumably in an office block next to Euston station, my request landed on the desk (well, in the PC) of the Schedule Integrity Manager in Leeds who said (and I quote)

"...However, it may be possible to provide you with examples of timetables that are no longer 'live', but this would be in the form of an email with a (large) word attachment file. Let me know if this is of any use to you."

I said "Yes, please", and I waited for weeks for this file to arrive. I'm still waiting! Am I right by saying that the Timetable Planning Unit (or whatever it's called) was in Prudential House, Blossom Street, York?
On the subject of conflicts, if a NXEC class 91 is working a Leeds to Kings Cross train and is approaching Doncaster, it really wants to avoid contact with a Kings Cross to Aberdeen HST at Marshgate Junction. While most of us would call that a Train Crash, NR Timetable planners would call it a Conflict! So would I, which is why I'm after junction times. On a less flippant note, under what circumstance(s) would a junction NOT be a conflict 'in your eyes'?

43106

 

[David]

On the subject of conflicts, if a NXEC class 91 is working a Leeds to Kings Cross train and is approaching Doncaster, it really wants to avoid contact with a Kings Cross to Aberdeen HST at Marshgate Junction.

.

Usually, there is a few minutes between trains that confict at Marshgate Jn, but the 1305 ex Leeds is booked to use P4, while the Highland Cheiftain flies through on the Down Fast. However, this is the exception to the ruke, and the services from Leeds are usually held (if needed) before being signalled into P1.

 

[43106]

.
Usually, there is a few minutes between trains that confict at Marshgate Jn, but the 1305 ex Leeds is booked to use P4, while the Highland Cheiftain flies through on the Down Fast. However, this is the exception to the ruke, and the services from Leeds are usually held (if needed) before being signalled into P1.

This is going to sound bl##dy patronising (which is NOT my intention), but that's the kind of problem I'm confronted with. The possibility of conflict exists at EVERY junction on the network. The fun/frustration is trying to cater for this and that's one of the reasons why I'm after WTT data - it gives accurate timing data. I've tried doing it manually (I used to go up & down the ECML about once every 3 weeks), but I'm never sure I get it right, as I'm not EXACTLY certain where Marshgate Junction is.

By the way, this is probably the wrong place to ask this, but I'll ask it anyway. I've had a few people ask me what sort of routes and services I've come up with. I've tried to attach a 2-sheet Word Doc to this posting, but I can't get EITHER "Attachment" functions to work - the 'paper clip' nor "Manage Attachments" in the "Addirional Options" sections. Is it the case that the forum HAD this function, but it's been disabled?

 

[Ben]

try uploading it to http://www.fileden.com/ using a free account then post the link to it here.

 

[43106]

try uploading it to http://www.fileden.com/ using a free account then post the link to it here.

I'm indebted to you, Ben.

My plans/ideas/intentions are here. Read 'em and and laugh!!!

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/28/2023524/Brief Intentions.doc

My God, it works! Again, thanks Ben!

43106

 

[Ben]

Your welcome.

Tomorrow Im going to have a good look & think about your extensive ideas & suggest some minor improvements if you dont mind?

 

[43106]

Tomorrow I'm going to have a good look & think about your extensive ideas & suggest some minor improvements if you dont mind?

You're more than welcome -I'm all ears!

43106

 

[The Planner]

Im glad you said you dont care about the politics, no XC via Brum Int ? madness....

Are you considering cutting down the Dec 08 Euston Brum frequency back to half hourly ?? Id also like to know where all the HSTs are coming from and how you are diagraming most of it (the tilt towards more Wolves terminators to New St ones doesnt seem to work in my head. Pertubation would knacker that set up as loads would stop short)

 

[43106]

I'm glad you said you don't care about the politics - no XC via Brum Int ? Madness....

That's right, and not via Coventry, either! The reason for this is two-fold. 1) To re-introduce Solihull to the IC network, and 2) to reduce the traffic between Brum and Coventry. I heard that it was seriously overloaded.

Are you considering cutting down the Dec '08 Euston - Brum frequency back to half hourly??

As far as I know, it's always been half-hourly. The only time it isn't is during rush hours. When you mean "...Dec '08..." do you mean the current PTT to Dec '08, or the one STARTING in Dec '08? (which I'm not privy to)

I'd also like to know where all the HSTs are coming from and how you are diagraming most of it (the tilt towards more Wolves terminators to New St ones doesnt seem to work in my head. Pertubation would knacker that set up as loads would stop short)

I have to admit to a helluva lot of simplification here. There's supposed to be a new version of HST in the pipeline (or is that old hat?). The ratio of New St to Wolves terminators is simply an 'averaging out' of the current EUS - BNS/WOLV service.
I'm reckoning on an 18-hour day (0600-2400) and the frequencies of trains I'm specifying (1 per hour, 1 per 2, 3 or 6 hours) fit nicely into that, so diagramming isn't much of a problem.

What's 'Pertubation'? Should this read 'Perturbation'?

 

[djw1981]

As far as I know, it's always been half-hourly. The only time it isn't is during rush hours. When you mean "...Dec '08..." do you mean the current PTT to Dec '08, or the one STARTING in Dec '08? (which I'm not privy to)

See http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/wcml/wcms2008timetables/ then. They have been available for almost a year now. They are the draft versions but are pretty much the finished version AIUI.

 

[43106]

See http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/wcml/wcms2008timetables/ then. They have been available for almost a year now. They are the draft versions but are pretty much the finished version AIUI.

Thanks for that, DW. In my search for info, I'd never considered the DfT. I did look at ORR a few years ago and asked them a question about the WTT when someone made the pronouncement that the WTT should go public. They totally evaded the issue and gave me a load of MBE (= Male Bovine Excrement).

I'll check out the VT timings at my leisure.

43106, in the same (professional) game as djw1981!