End of Yellow Front Ends?

[MK Tom]

I was wondering why the new Sheffield Class 399 doesn't have yellow ends. I'm guessing this is why!

 

[Elecman]

Which headlight, night or day?
What if the headlight fails?
What if we need to make a wrong direction move and to comply with the rules and regs we have to leave the whites/headlight on at the rear?

I could go on!

In answer, the brightest light possible as its now the safety feature. As now train limited to move forward at heavily reduced speed to a point where it can be taken out of service. Use of Override switches,

Safety must be the number one priority.

 

[Class 170101]

Which is why until there is an entire fleet of trains with compliant headlights (class 345), you probably won't see liveries without it

As has been pointed out this is all well and good until the headlight fails.

Powerful lights could also blind passing drivers (on adacent lines) look at those car drivers who leave their full beam headlights on inconsiderately to see what I mean.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Why can't silver strips such as those on Hi-vis jackets be added to the trains. Surely the brighter they are, the easier to see at night?
I think the yellow should stay, standard safety schemes should not be replaced by company branding unless a study has found that Yellow ends aren't safer.

 

[colchesterken]

I sometimes trainspot at Marks Tey ,the London bound is a long straight from Colchester from the down platform you can see the new LED lights on the 90s long before the shape even of the train let alone the yellow front
LEDs are great I have changed all my lights at home they are so much better than the old low energy lights

 

[Johncleesefan]

The yellow should stay, always as a back up to lights failing etc, even with imposed speed restrictions that comes with defective end lights why wouldn't you want another safety feature

 

[Tetchytyke]

As has been pointed out this is all well and good until the headlight fails.

Trains with defective headlights are limited in speed- 20mph IIRC.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Here we go again. Anti enthusiasts!! Nobody cares what you think!! I know I don't!

Here we go again. Big words from the forum member who cannot stand it when enthusiasts with a sense of perspective post on this forum! Oh well never mind
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Someone obviously does care otherwise the RSSB wouldn't have wasted all that time and money in consulting on, investigating, and implementing the change to their standards.

Would you care to explain because I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Elecman]

Why can't silver strips such as those on Hi-vis jackets be added to the trains. Surely the brighter they are, the easier to see at night?
I think the yellow should stay, standard safety schemes should not be replaced by company branding unless a study has found that Yellow ends aren't safer.

The silver stripes reflect light but don't generate light so they are of no use as an aid to viewing

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the truth is somewhere between the extremes of your's and Ash's position...

I don't think painting all the trains s*** brown in a industry which many passengers consider to be s*** would go unnoticed or be beneficial. If you're painting the trains, which you've got to do nowadays, it makes no sense not to make them look smart. Impressions do count, but in the grand scheme of things a normal train livery isn't normally going to make any great impression on your average passenger. It is what it is.

Plus I think most people who travel frequently vaguely know the colour of the train/TOC they'd normally travel on. Just go to somewhere like Birmingham New Street where you'll see the majority of people not jumping onto incorrect trains, even if the screens suggest they should. While I'd agree many people leave their consciousness behind when they enter the railway, I believe your level of unawareness is fairly uncommon, particularly unusual given your further interest in the railway.

In all fairness from what I've seen at Birmingham New Street a lot of TOC's seem to use the same group of platforms. In which case if say two Cross Country trains are at platform 10 at the same time surely you could not go by the colour of the train alone as there would be chaos. From my own personal experience as an occasional user the platform screens and in particular the staff are as helpful as they can be.

In terms of train recognition from the normal passengers point of view, like everything else you will only remember something if you are able to study it for a long enough period. If you are joining the train at a terminus or you are on the platform as a train arrives I find it hard to understand how anyone could take in the colours of a train in such a short period of time unless you were interested in the train itself.

I think the key thing here is that some rail enthusiasts and railways employees on this forum assume that the general travelling public view trains in the same that we do. I would argue that's simply not the case, hence one or two threads with the general theme "Idiotic Questions Asked By Fare Paying Passengers" etc.

 

[Trog]

Pendolino looks quite nice without the yellow front. (poor photoshop haha)

Quite Nelsonian, with any luck the blood will not show up too badly on the red paint.

Yellow paint can do no harm, if it gives even the slightest advantage to those who work on the track. Even if only in certain conditions of weather or angle of approach it should stay.

 

[Phil.]

As has been pointed out this is all well and good until the headlight fails.

Powerful lights could also blind passing drivers (on adacent lines) look at those car drivers who leave their full beam headlights on inconsiderately to see what I mean.

What happens now if a headlamp fails at night?
Those powerful lights are fitted now.

 

[185]

You cant state it is less safe without having them can you as you have never worked without them have you?

Not strictly true, I have worked with some older types of sets without yellow ends, a few on here can vouch for that, but that's unimportant.

Of the view that although it's not the end of the world if the yellow front fiasco comes about, I've always been of the view if you're down on the line when the service has gone belly up, I'd want the best opportunity to be aware of an approaching train ....the railway brought canary yellow in to improve visibility of trains during daylight - ideal in bright sunshine, glaring snow or dull/dim days.

 

[JaJaWa]

Of the view that although it's not the end of the world if the yellow front fiasco comes about...

There's no question of it "coming about" - the standards change was approved, and the Class 399s have been delivered with black and blue fronts. Except many more to follow.

 

[BurtonM]

To quote Los Angeles Metro:

"We have chosen an eyecatching replacement paint scheme, used in the United Kingdom which we feel better helps Drivers, Bicyclists and Pedestrians easily identify an approaching train"

De ja vous.....

Ha ha ha, a direct ripoff of the Metrolink livery.
(Could Metrolink sue?)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I saw a pic once of a Networker that had the yellow photoshopped out for white and it looked wierd

 

[D365]

Would you care to explain because I have no idea what you're talking about

Mojo's comment isn't difficult to make sense of.

I saw a pic once of a Networker that had the yellow photoshopped out for white and it looked wierd

Thanks for your contribution... yeah it was one of Burkitt's photoshops.

 

[JaJaWa]

Thanks for your contribution... yeah it was one of Burkitt's photoshops.

I like the caption "Several attempts have been made to drop the required yellow panel, the early class 150/2s and the Heathrow Express class 332s being notable examples. What if modern headlights had been deemed sufficient and BR had managed to do away with the requirement?".

I've seen the original Heathrow Express mock up, does anyone have a copy of the 150/2 without yellow?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Mojo's comment isn't difficult to make sense of.

Well it is if you've never heard of the RSSB, which indeed I haven't so I'm still none the wiser.

 

[GB]

Yellow paint can do no harm, if it gives even the slightest advantage to those who work on the track. Even if only in certain conditions of weather or angle of approach it should stay.

Spot on I'd say.

 

[Goldfish62]

I like the caption "Several attempts have been made to drop the required yellow panel, the early class 150/2s and the Heathrow Express class 332s being notable examples. What if modern headlights had been deemed sufficient and BR had managed to do away with the requirement?".

I've seen the original Heathrow Express mock up, does anyone have a copy of the 150/2 without yellow?

I remember seeing a photo in a magazine years ago. It looked fine.
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I saw a pic once of a Networker that had the yellow photoshopped out for white and it looked wierd

It looks good to me - but then I do travel to Europe extensively so am used to seeing trains without yellow ends.

 

[Class 170101]

What happens now if a headlamp fails at night?
Those powerful lights are fitted now.

The yellow end is still there though.
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I also got the impression that LED lights didn't penetrate well in mist and fog.

 

[TRAX]

I wonder if progress in laser light technology in the automobile sector will affect or not the rail industry...

 

[507 001]

I like the caption "Several attempts have been made to drop the required yellow panel, the early class 150/2s and the Heathrow Express class 332s being notable examples. What if modern headlights had been deemed sufficient and BR had managed to do away with the requirement?".

I've seen the original Heathrow Express mock up, does anyone have a copy of the 150/2 without yellow?

there's a photo about half way down this page......

http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/sixteen.htm

 

[Feathers44]

To an outsider this reads very much as the last bastion of entrenched opinion and very little reasoned argument. All I get is that the standards have changed and people don't like it because 'they know better'.

If that's the case, then why aren't 'they' writing the standards? Is there really that much distance between the guys on the ground and those writing the regulations?

 

[Domh245]

I also got the impression that LED lights didn't penetrate well in mist and fog.

I think that you are thinking about LED signals, which ISTR aren't all that liked by drivers for the reasons you state. But I thought that it was more down to lenses than the LEDs themselves (the lack of lenses on led signals mean the light is just scattered, rather than focused into a beam). If you put a lens in front of an LED cluster, it should be able to penetrate the mist and fog as well as your regular piece of glowing filament.

 

[bramling]

I think that you are thinking about LED signals, which ISTR aren't all that liked by drivers for the reasons you state. But I thought that it was more down to lenses than the LEDs themselves (the lack of lenses on led signals mean the light is just scattered, rather than focused into a beam). If you put a lens in front of an LED cluster, it should be able to penetrate the mist and fog as well as your regular piece of glowing filament.

I think the general feeling that the LED heads (e.g. the common Dorman ones) are useless in fog (and some other conditions). However, where LEDs have been installed in existing heads (e.g. southern end of the ECML), the feeling is it's a considerable improvement.

 

[455driver]

To an outsider this reads very much as the last bastion of entrenched opinion and very little reasoned argument. All I get is that the standards have changed and people don't like it because 'they know better'.

If that's the case, then why aren't 'they' writing the standards? Is there really that much distance between the guys on the ground and those writing the regulations?

Because people with letters after their names know best despite never actually having been on the tracks looking for an approaching train!
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I think the general feeling that the LED heads (e.g. the common Dorman ones) are useless in fog (and some other conditions). However, where LEDs have been installed in existing heads (e.g. southern end of the ECML), the feeling is it's a considerable improvement.

Near enough yes, The Dorman ones are blindingly bright at night but useless in thick fog whether day or night!

 

[XCTurbostar]

The yellow should stay, always as a back up to lights failing etc, even with imposed speed restrictions that comes with defective end lights why wouldn't you want another safety feature

This. I agree with you 100%
Thanks,
Ross

 

[po8crg]

My understanding is that to remove the yellow panel you have to have one of these three-light formations on the front and they have to reach a certain brightness.

If that's right, and a light fails, presumably the train would then get down-checked and returned to depot at reduced speed. But if you had a yellow panel and only one of the three lights failed, then you'd still be hitting the standards so you could complete your diagram at normal speeds and then replace the bulb (yes, I know, LED) in the depot overnight.

If I were a TOC, I know which option I'd take!

The 399s are an exception, because they wouldn't be allowed on the roads with a faulty headlight anyway, so you'd have to get a replacement unit regardless.

But as a regular TOC, being able to keep a train in service for the sake of a lick of paint seems like a heck of a bargain.