Did not buy a ticket at Runcorn, now in trouble

[Peterlanny]

Hi I was wondering if you could help me please or give advice

My wife jumped on a train from Runcorn old town to Liverpool lime st without buying a ticket. The only reason was she was in a rush as the train was pulling up. When in Lime st she was stopped and asked to show a ticket which she didn't have but said would buy one. Staff refused and charged her £20 fine they asked for id and the only one she had was her driving license in her old name. The staff took those details and sent a fine in the post. Christmas passed and the Mrs forgot to pay the fine which is now jumped up to £80 but the letter had the first name spelt incorrectly. I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on.
Can some one please advise what to do.
Sorry I had to post on this as I tried a new thread but couldn't post

Thanks

 

[CheesyChips]

My wife jumped on a train from Runcorn old town to Liverpool lime st without buying a ticket.

Unless there are no ticket purchasing facilities available where she boarded, that's how she committed a crime and took on the liability for a penalty fare.

The only reason was she was in a rush as the train was pulling up.

That's not a defence I'm afraid.

Christmas passed and the Mrs forgot to pay the fine which is now jumped up to £80 but the letter had the first name spelt incorrectly. I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on

Then you have given her poor advice that will more than likely lead to her being prosecuted for a byelaw offence and given a fine much larger than £80.

I'm not sure why the spelling error is relevant, it's a small technicality that can be amended quite easily.

Can some one please advise what to do.

Pay the £80. The nature of the byelaws will mean she will be convicted so you can either pay £80 now or multiple £100's a little further down the line.

 

[najaB]

I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on.

This is very poor advice. You should pay the amount requested now to avoid the matter escalating.

 

[455driver]

Where ticket buying facilities your wife should have bought a ticket before getting on the train, as soon as she stepped onto the train she had committed an offence, the RPI who stopped her gave her the benefit of the doubt and gave her the penalty fare (which is given when it is believed to have been a mistake), by not paying the £20 your wife has given the impression that she did indeed try to defraud the railway and they have upped the costs accordingly, if she doesnt pay the £80 then they will issue a summons to Court where your wife will be found guilty and fined a lot more than £80 because she doesnt have a defence (running late isnt a defence because she could have either got to the station early enough to buy a ticket or bought a ticket and caught a later train) so your best bet is to pay up and in future always buy tickets before getting on the train.

If you dont pay the £80 and it goes to court what is your wifes defence going to be bearing in mind intent is proved by actions (not buying a ticket and not paying the £20) rather what she wanted/should have done.

Your advice not to pay will only lead to a trip to court, if she decides not go to court and contest it then she will be found guilty in her absence and the fine sent in the post, fail to pay that one and a whole word of hurt will be knocking on your door.

 

[najaB]

Pay the £80. The nature of the byelaws will mean she will be convicted so you can either pay £80 now or multiple £100's a little further down the line.

Even if the Byelaws weren't strict liability, by not paying the PF when it was initially offered, then again when it was requested by post and failing to interact with the TOC the Court would have sufficient evidence to find intent to avoid payment.

 

[Bungle965]

Hi I was wondering if you could help me please or give advice

My wife jumped on a train from Runcorn old town to Liverpool lime st without buying a ticket. The only reason was she was in a rush as the train was pulling up. When in Lime st she was stopped and asked to show a ticket which she didn't have but said would buy one. Staff refused and charged her £20 fine they asked for id and the only one she had was her driving license in her old name. The staff took those details and sent a fine in the post. Christmas passed and the Mrs forgot to pay the fine which is now jumped up to £80 but the letter had the first name spelt incorrectly. I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on.
Can some one please advise what to do.
Sorry I had to post on this as I tried a new thread but couldn't post

Thanks

:roll: Pay and shut up, as all of the other comments have said your wife was in the wrong, and you do not want a trip to court.
Runcorn has a ticket office and also TVM`s your wife chose to ignore them and therefore committed an offence.
Sam

 

[Darandio]

Can some one please advise what to do.

Pay the £80, chalk it down to experience and make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[mikeg]

I take it she travelled with London Midland, who operate a penalty fare scheme on the route?

This scheme is legally enforceable and approved by the Department for Transport. There will have been signs at the station of origin clearly stating that it is a penalty fare station (typically titled 'Have you paid?') and that you must buy a ticket before boarding where there are facilities to do so. Your wife running late isn't the fault of the railway! She should have allowed a good five to ten minutes to buy a ticket.

Penalty fares and byelaw prosecutions are done on a 'strict liability' basis, one of no ticket no excuse with very few exceptions. The few exceptions are clearly defined in law as:

1. Had (written ideally) consent from an authorised person to travel
2. There were no ticket issuing facilities at the station of origin

I don't think I've missed anything. The fact she was approached by the ticket inspectors also suggests she had passed the excess fares desk, so how else do you propose she would have paid if not stopped? This would look suspicious and it's lucky she wasn't reported for prosecution there and then.

In short, she should have paid the penalty fare and put it down to experience, they are for honest mistakes and acts of carelessness, however unfair it seems it is not an accusation of deliberate fare evasion, which should in theory result in prosecution.

My advice: Pay the eighty quid, it'll save you a load of money compared with prosecutions and the resulting fines and costs and next time remember that you can pay a penalty fare and appeal to get your money back if it was incorrectly issued. It sounds however that this one was issued properly so there is no grounds for appeal.

 

[gray1404]

Pay the £80. I'm assuming it was the London Midland service she travelled on given a PF was issued. Its rare to see their RPIs out on that part of the network. I don't think many people realise LM run a PF scheme. Only last week a I was on the LIV to BHM service and I saw two passengers buy Off Peak Returns to BHM onboard (lucky the guard didn't insist on selling Anytime tickets).

 

[6Gman]

--

Hi I was wondering if you could help me please or give advice

My wife jumped on a train from Runcorn old town to Liverpool lime st without buying a ticket. The only reason was she was in a rush as the train was pulling up. When in Lime st she was stopped and asked to show a ticket which she didn't have but said would buy one. Staff refused and charged her £20 fine they asked for id and the only one she had was her driving license in her old name. The staff took those details and sent a fine in the post. Christmas passed and the Mrs forgot to pay the fine which is now jumped up to £80 but the letter had the first name spelt incorrectly. I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on.

But she was allowed to pay "later on" but she ignored the letter!

As others have said, pay the £80. This can only get worse otherwise.

 

[bb21]

I have told my wife not to pay it as you should have been allowed to pay the fare and the rest later on.

I suspect that you did not really understand the implication of such actions and simply let your heart rule your head?

 

[455driver]

OP logged in at 23:38 yesterday (13/02/16)but hasn't replied to any of the posts made, I guess they haven't got the replies they wanted.

 

[AM9]

OP logged in at 23:38 yesterday (13/02/16)but hasn't replied to any of the posts made, I guess they haven't got the replies they wanted.

Probably feels too embarassed to post.

 

[najaB]

OP logged in at 23:38 yesterday (13/02/16)but hasn't replied to any of the posts made, I guess they haven't got the replies they wanted.

Either that, or as a new member their posts are awaiting moderation.

 

[Greenback]

Peter, have a think about it for a minute. If there were no penalties for not having a ticket when one could have been bought before joining a train, as should always be the case where there are facilities to do so, far more people wouldn't bother to buy a ticket and would only pay the fare when challenged to do so.

This would have negative effects on revenue, increase the subsidies required to run the network which many people already think are far too high, and the result could well be that the whole network becomes unsustainable.

It would be better to try and help your wife not find herself in this situation again.

 

[6Gman]

In my experience a significant proportion of Runcorn - Liverpool passengers see ticket purchase as an optional extra (since there is generally no checking at Lime Street platforms 7/8).

 

[gray1404]

So it must be that London Midland revenue protection occasionally set-up shop at the buffer stop end of platform 8.

 

[6Gman]

So it must be that London Midland revenue protection occasionally set-up shop at the buffer stop end of platform 8.

Or an LM train ran into platforms 1-6 (which they sometimes do).

 

[185143]

Or an LM train ran into platforms 1-6 (which they sometimes do).

Northern wouldnt be able to issue a penalty fare though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd imagine not; their RPIs in the North West would not be PF trained. They could issue an £80 special if they wanted, but that's not a PF.