c2c more stock

[Peter Sarf]

377207/211/212 in FCC colours transferred in 2011, 377208-210/213-215 transferred in early 2014.

The 26x 377/6 were direct replacement for the 26x 377 FCC had (23x 377/5 and 3x 377/2). The 377/7 order was granted on basis of 8x 377/7 replacing 6x 377/2 going to FCC and doing train lengthening.

For the record, Southern, Southeastern, Great Western, London Midland and Northern franchises have all benefitted from the Thameslink Programme.

Thanks for the facts. I had forgotten that the second transfer of six 377/2s had only happened about two years ago. So it was only three 377/2s but ALL the 377/5s that went to Thameslink five years ago. Time flies !.

As you say a lot of TOCs benefit from the new Thameslink stock replacing Thameslink's current stock - 319s, 377s and 387s. Even further TOCs (will have) have benefited from the stock cascaded away from the direct recipients you mention above. Of course plenty of benefits (most) are in the pipeline and will start being realised once the class 700s have started settling in on Thameslink after April this year.

As for c2c. I can see that the dual voltage 377s would probably be the most appropriate extra stock - not much more then changed couplers required I imagine ?. But not until Thameslink are ready to give some up.

 

[MatthewRead]

I was looking forward to seeing the 7-carconverted pantograph-fitted-442-360-321-377-Dstock-230-Isleofwighttramtrain-Thameslink-SWT-Southern-AGA-FordTransitVan hybrids!

I think that pretty much sums up RailUKforums to be honest.

Stop talking nonsense

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks for the facts. I had forgotten that the second transfer of six 377/2s had only happened about two years ago. So it was only three 377/2s but ALL the 377/5s that went to Thameslink five years ago. Time flies !.

As you say a lot of TOCs benefit from the new Thameslink stock replacing Thameslink's current stock - 319s, 377s and 387s. Even further TOCs (will have) have benefited from the stock cascaded away from the direct recipients you mention above. Of course plenty of benefits (most) are in the pipeline and will start being realised once the class 700s have started settling in on Thameslink after April this year.

As for c2c. I can see that the dual voltage 377s would probably be the most appropriate extra stock - not much more then changed couplers required I imagine ?. But not until Thameslink are ready to give some up.

There are no spare dv 377s. All are required by GTR. Most will be used on GN.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are no spare dv 377s. All are required by GTR. Most will be used on GN.

I forgot about the Great Northern services that will continue into Kings Cross after Thameslink has become completely class 700s . I have lost track - so GN will use the 9*377/2s and all the 23*377/5s ?.

By the time all the 700s are delivered and even a few of those dv 377s could possibly become free c2c will have had time to order and get delivered their own totally new trains anyway. In the short term (but not right now) would it be possible for a few dv 377s to temporarily be loaned to c2c. That is before GN loses any/all of its current stock (365s) to Great Western which I presume could be delayed because Great Western might not be ready to use all of them yet ?.

 

[bramling]

377207/211/212 in FCC colours transferred in 2011, 377208-210/213-215 transferred in early 2014.

The 26x 377/6 were direct replacement for the 26x 377 FCC had (23x 377/5 and 3x 377/2). The 377/7 order was granted on basis of 8x 377/7 replacing 6x 377/2 going to FCC and doing train lengthening.

For the record, Southern, Southeastern, Great Western, London Midland and Northern franchises have all benefitted from the Thameslink Programme.

You mean a load of franchises getting second-hand stock, coming up to 30 years old in the case of the class 319s?

A dubious benefit given at least some of these services might have had new stock instead.

 

[fgwrich]

You mean a load of franchises getting second-hand stock, coming up to 30 years old in the case of the class 319s?

A dubious benefit given at least some of these services might have had new stock instead.

Maybe so in the case of the 319s, but what is better. A 2 Car Pacer or 4 Car 319 on many of those routes for the North. Some will receive newer rolling stock in the future, but for now can make do with the 319s which, with a perfectly good refurbishment (take note!) will see them going strong for a few more years yet!

 

[Skimble19]

I forgot about the Great Northern services that will continue into Kings Cross after Thameslink has become completely class 700s . I have lost track - so GN will use the 9*377/2s and all the 23*377/5s ?.

By the time all the 700s are delivered and even a few of those dv 377s could possibly become free c2c will have had time to order and get delivered their own totally new trains anyway. In the short term (but not right now) would it be possible for a few dv 377s to temporarily be loaned to c2c. That is before GN loses any/all of its current stock (365s) to Great Western which I presume could be delayed because Great Western might not be ready to use all of them yet ?.

365s aren't going yet, but 317s and 321s are due to be replaced on GN this year by the 377s..

It was a long time ago but I believe 317s worked on the c2c route before (although obviously driver training would be needed as its been so long!)

 

[Class 170101]

317s did work on c2c whilst the 357s were entering service. Like most stock they weren't as reliable as they are now and with the 310s and some 312s already gone for scrapping they were all that was available.

 

[D365]

I forgot about the Great Northern services that will continue into Kings Cross after Thameslink has become completely class 700s . I have lost track - so GN will use the 9*377/2s and all the 23*377/5s ?

No, we won't be receiving any 377/2s - up to 23 377/5s, possibly only 19. 21 of the total 40 365s will be going to GWR.

 

[MatthewRead]

Just read the latest issue of Modern Railways and it says C2C will be getting Heathrow Connect class 360s now I don't know if the information is out of date or something we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its out of date, the deal fell through. Magazines go to the printer on average 3 weeks before they hit store shelves.

 

[absolutelymilk]

If the Porterbrook 387s were not wanted by anyone, is it more likely that c2c would get them directly or that the 387s would go to someone else and c2c would then take that operator's stock?

 

[Minstral25]

Southern stopping services on Redhill have now transferred to Thameslink (first of many) so releasing Southern services to speed up while requiring Thameslink to have more stock.

.

That is only partially correct from my understanding. The Arun Valley services were put down the quarry, so to create a fast service from Redhill still Reigate/Tonbridge trains were diverted from London Bridge to Victoria using all the existing stock so no spare units. The Horsham slows remain with Southern currently using the same stock, so again no spare units.

They had to create a service to replace the lost 2tph slow trains to London Bridge, but the only way they could do that was to get the Bedford - Three Bridges services to call additionally at Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley. Disappointingly they only go to Blackfriars.

This is of little use to customers so now the half-hourly Horsham to London Bridge services are overcrowded at certain times off-peak and the Bed-TBD's run mostly empty as in most cases its faster to get Victoria service which leaves after them and use the tube from Victoria - saves 10 mins to Blackfriars and St Pancras

So no Southern units released as far as I can see.

 

[southern442]

That is only partially correct from my understanding. The Arun Valley services were put down the quarry, so to create a fast service from Redhill still Reigate/Tonbridge trains were diverted from London Bridge to Victoria using all the existing stock so no spare units. The Horsham slows remain with Southern currently using the same stock, so again no spare units.

They had to create a service to replace the lost 2tph slow trains to London Bridge, but the only way they could do that was to get the Bedford - Three Bridges services to call additionally at Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley. Disappointingly they only go to Blackfriars.

This is of little use to customers so now the half-hourly Horsham to London Bridge services are overcrowded at certain times off-peak and the Bed-TBD's run mostly empty as in most cases its faster to get Victoria service which leaves after them and use the tube from Victoria - saves 10 mins to Blackfriars and St Pancras

So no Southern units released as far as I can see.

The people on the Redhill line have got a really really bad deal with the new timetable.

1. First, Redhill now has no services to the coast.
2. Second, their fast services to London now have only 4 coaches usually.
3. The services to Bedford do not serve London Bridge; instead, they go to Blackfriars, which take ages between East Croydon and Blackfriars, which basically means they are only useful as far as East Croydon.

So basically, no more coastal services, a reduction in capacity on the line, and less convenient services. Was the new timetable deliberately trying to make life worse for people? Did they just troll us all?

Anyway, apologies for going off topic, we should get back on the matter of the thread.
So now I am no longer responsible for any off topic conversation

 

[Class377/5]

That is only partially correct from my understanding. The Arun Valley services were put down the quarry, so to create a fast service from Redhill still Reigate/Tonbridge trains were diverted from London Bridge to Victoria using all the existing stock so no spare units. The Horsham slows remain with Southern currently using the same stock, so again no spare units.

They had to create a service to replace the lost 2tph slow trains to London Bridge, but the only way they could do that was to get the Bedford - Three Bridges services to call additionally at Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley. Disappointingly they only go to Blackfriars.

This is of little use to customers so now the half-hourly Horsham to London Bridge services are overcrowded at certain times off-peak and the Bed-TBD's run mostly empty as in most cases its faster to get Victoria service which leaves after them and use the tube from Victoria - saves 10 mins to Blackfriars and St Pancras

So no Southern units released as far as I can see.

Thats preetu much my point. Speeded up Southern services was balanced by slowing down of Thameslink services. Long term those stops stay with Thameslink and the Horsham stoppers transfer to Thameslink in the next couple of years. Once the Thameslink services start going through London Bridge again from January 2018 things may be difference and those empty TL trains maybe busier.

 

[Class 170101]

1. The services to Bedford do not serve London Bridge; instead, they go to Blackfriars, which take ages between East Croydon and Blackfriars, which basically means they are only useful as far as East Croydon.

Thats a bit difficult as there is a piece of track missing between London Bridge and Blackfriars. :roll:

 

[southern442]

Thats a bit difficult as there is a piece of track missing between London Bridge and Blackfriars. :roll:

Yes I know that, I wasn't referring specifically to London Bridge. My point was that the diversion between East Croydon and London Blackfriars takes so long that the Bedford trains are essentially useless for getting to central London unless you specifically want to use one of the termini served en route.

 

[chris11256]

It's been announced today that c2c have reached agreement with the DFT for 24 'brand new' carriages(assuming 6 trains at 4 carriages each). Link to announcement/

Apparently they will be introduced from October onwards. I can only assume they are 387s. Article specifically says 'built in Derby'.

 

[Class377/5]

It's been announced today that c2c have reached agreement with the DFT for 24 'brand new' carriages(assuming 6 trains at 4 carriages each). Link to announcement/

Apparently they will be introduced from October onwards. I can only assume they are 387s. Article specifically says 'built in Derby'.

The contains a picture of 387101.

 

[chris11256]

The contains a picture of 387101.

Thanks for that. I couldn't quite read the number.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Are these the 387s that were ordered speculatively?

 

[pemma]

A 3 year lease is mentioned (from 2016-2019) so could it be GWR units which can't be used due to electrification delays?

 

[jeromeroberts]

A 3 year lease is mentioned (from 2016-2019) so could it be GWR units which can't be used due to electrification delays?

From the porterbrook speculative order

This year's new trains are part of a build of Class 387 Bombardier units which had been ordered by leasing company Porterbrook, and which had been surplus until c2c stepped in to sign a short-term lease for them.

http://railnews.mobi/#/news/2016/04/13-new-trains-boost-to-deal.html

 

[samuelmorris]

7 months from new build to being introduced on a line where 387s aren't already in service? I know 357s and 387s aren't worlds apart but given what I understand fairly substantial technological differences between the units, and 387s not having been used on that route before, plus the fact they aren't already in service elsewhere, does that not seem like a bit of a tight deadline? Or have I misunderstood the article?

 

[swt_passenger]

... plus the fact they aren't already in service elsewhere, does that not seem like a bit of a tight deadline? Or have I misunderstood the article?

They are in service elsewhere though, surely These will be a variant on those currently used by GatEx (387/2) and Thameslink (387/1)?

 

[absolutelymilk]

They are in service elsewhere though, surely These will be a variant on those currently used by GatEx (387/2) and Thameslink (387/1)?

Surely as they are needed quickly, Bombardier could just produce more 387/2s? Is there anything that urgently needs changing?

 

[Mikey C]

Surely as they are needed quickly, Bombardier could just produce more 387/2s? Is there anything that urgently needs changing?

The basic 387s are all the same anyway, a few different handrails and colours is hardly rocket science

 

[387star]

I know,this is trivial but interesting to see what interior they wioo get if the spot hire ones perhaps portervrook purple

 

[59CosG95]

I know,this is trivial but interesting to see what interior they wioo get if the spot hire ones perhaps portervrook purple

Porterbrook Purple? Dear god...

 

[phoenixcronin]

7 months from new build to being introduced on a line where 387s aren't already in service? I know 357s and 387s aren't worlds apart but given what I understand fairly substantial technological differences between the units, and 387s not having been used on that route before, plus the fact they aren't already in service elsewhere, does that not seem like a bit of a tight deadline? Or have I misunderstood the article?

There are some key differences though, e.g. 357s don't have end gangways, 387s do, and the 357s use Tightlock couplers, whereas the 387s have Dellner couplers, so they would be unable to couple.