Positive signs from Virgin Trains East Coast (interesting survey questions)

[All Line Rover]

In contrast to Virgin Trains West Coast's habit of removing valuable facilities without meaningful consultation and celebrating every petty 'improvement' that is made, Virgin Trains East Coast sent me an interesting survey which suggests that management at the franchise wish to continue the passenger-oriented approach that was adopted by DOR (state-owned Directly Operated Railways).

The survey had a list of around 20 proposed improvements that Virgin Trains East Coast could make and asked if these would, and I paraphrase, make me have "a much higher opinion of Virgin Trains East Coast" (up to a maximum of 4 of the proposed improvements), "a slightly higher opinion of Virgin Trains East Coast", "no difference in my opinion of Virgin Trains East Coast", or "a lower opinion of Virgin Trains East Coast".

The range of proposed improvements was genuinely fascinating. They ranged from "quiet coaches with effective enforcement" (a big thumbs up from me!), to "advance fares which permit travel on trains either side of the booked train", to "different coaches for parties, families, business passengers, etc.", to "a chauffeur service for getting to and from railway stations", to simple improvements such as the ability to select a seat, signs indicating where to board for each carriage, luggage handlers, and so on.

One other novel suggestion was a Standard Premium class (it didn't say how many seats or carriages), but this seemed like a gimmick as it meant standard class seats with free Wi-Fi and tea/coffee. I'm not keen on this proposal because I don't want to see a reduction in the number of standard class seats (or in the number of first class seats, if VTEC changed their mind and proposed that first class seats be used for Standard Premium).

Slightly confusingly, some of the 'proposed' improvements have already been implemented, such as the seat selector. Perhaps VTEC want to know how much these different facilities are valued by passengers so that they know where to best direct future investment.

I forgot to take a screenshot of the list of proposed improvements, and because I have since submitted the survey I am unable to revisit it. If anyone else receives a link to the survey, could you please post such a screenshot.

 

[cf111]

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

[leedstraindude]

One other novel suggestion was a Standard Premium class (it didn't say how many seats or carriages), but this seemed like a gimmick as it meant standard class seats with free Wi-Fi and tea/coffee. I'm not keen on this proposal because I don't want to see a reduction in the number of standard class seats (or in the number of first class seats, if VTEC changed their mind and proposed that first class seats be used for Standard Premium).

Didn't GNER try a standard plus in the late 90s? Was in the nearest coach to the buffet as I recall?

 

[Marton]

Silver Standard. It might even have been Inter City EC.

Of course there was a silver service restaurant in those days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for a premium economy if the actual physical product was better - perhaps something like still 2+2 but fully aligned to the windows, i.e. with First Class spacing, per the Grand Central interior. I'm less bothered about paying for inclusive wifi (this is 2016, it should be free anyway) and buying a coffee from the buffet/trolley is hardly a hardship.

Seat selection good (it's finally given me a motive to bother reserving) *but* they need to mark the window positions on the seatmap properly, as that is why I want to select. And it would be nice if the TOCs could get together on a standard implementation so you don't have to split your booking to get it on a multi-TOC journey.

 

[Chrism20]

Didn't GNER try a standard plus in the late 90s? Was in the nearest coach to the buffet as I recall?

Yes they definitely did and was the standard coach nearest to the buffet.

The seats had standard plus anti-macassars and there were tea and coffee runs. No wifi back then though.

I think it only really lasted one, possibly two timetable runs then it was done away with.

 

[185143]

Yes they definitely did and was the standard coach nearest to the buffet.

The seats had standard plus anti-macassars and there were tea and coffee runs. No wifi back then though.

I think it only really lasted one, possibly two timetable runs then it was done away with.

I don't see why it needs to be a separate coach tbh. Assuming the premium was sensibly priced, I don't see why they couldn't simply sell an add on that included a wifi code and you visit the onboard shop with your ticket and the drinks are free?

Lets not forget 6/7 years ago that VTWC FIRST CLASS passengers had to go to the shop for complimentaries at weekends! (Indeed I've been on vomiters relatively recently and still had to go to the shop-granted its just in the next coach but that's not the point at all)

 

[Chrisgr31]

I have previously made the suggestion of a Premium Economy on trains, to include wifi, tea/coffee & snack.

My theory was that many companies will not pay for First Class these days but if there is a middle tier which still enable staff to work they may pay it, or indeed the staff member might pay the upgrade themselves. Wifi and on board refreshments are so expensive many go without roll it all into one and the take-up therefore profitability might be better. Pricing is the key though!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Premium Economy - will probably end up just being another service that is not available at times.

Leading to being told on here that it is not part of my fare and that is a complimentary service that is removable....

Sorry to be such a pessimist

 

[Polarbear]

Silver Standard. It might even have been Inter City EC.

Of course there was a silver service restaurant in those days.

Yep, Silver Standard was introduced by Intercity before privatisation. In theory a good idea, it turned out to be difficult to operate in the real world & also abstracted revenue from 1st class.

Does anyone recall what Virgin tried on the West Coast soon after privatisation? They tried a three class system (gold, silver & bronze as I recall). That didn't work very well either!

 

[jopsuk]

Did Virgin ever actually implement the 3-class idea? I thought it was only planned?

 

[HH]

Polarbear has the main problem - 1st class abstraction. I know it was an idea that featured in the aborted west coast competition, where 1st class had taken a real hammering following the recession. But that was a few years ago and WC. No idea what 1st class is like on the EC currently.

 

[RAPC]

Similar questionnaire came to me via VTWC about 2 weeks ago. Obviously, content was more WC based, but it was similar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My theory was that many companies will not pay for First Class these days but if there is a middle tier which still enable staff to work they may pay it, or indeed the staff member might pay the upgrade themselves.

I do sometimes pay Weekend First myself. FWIW though I would only consider premium economy if the physical product was improved, not if it was just a First Class style service in Standard seating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does anyone recall what Virgin tried on the West Coast soon after privatisation? They tried a three class system (gold, silver & bronze as I recall). That didn't work very well either!

Gold Zone, Purple Zone and Blue Zone.

The Blue Zone was an odd hybrid, off-peak it was a mix of First and Standard coaches, open to Standard Open (Anytime) ticket holders only and open for Weekend First (not that anyone would in the Standard bit). Peak I think it was Standard only, no Advances would be in those coaches.

It was a confusing flop and didn't last long, fortunately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Polarbear has the main problem - 1st class abstraction. I know it was an idea that featured in the aborted west coast competition, where 1st class had taken a real hammering following the recession. But that was a few years ago and WC. No idea what 1st class is like on the EC currently.

I find the seating worse than WC (I recognise this is a matter of opinion; it is caused by the same issue the Standard seats have where the seat base raises towards the back) but the service better (more attentive, certainly).

 

[ag51ruk]

Midland Main Line tried a Business Class briefly around 1997 - it didn't guarantee a first class seat as it was movable (denoted by removable stickers on windows and headrests) but in practice I don't believe First Class was ever busy enough to mean that Business Class passengers were seated in standard class seats.

I can't remember what the benefits were, except that in First at that time all food and drink was free, which wasn't the case in Business. Tea and coffee was free for everyone on MML at that time, of course.

Edited to add: I've found reference to this in a local user group newsletter from 1998 - had forgotten real First was renamed "Premier"!

"The people who brought us the much-appreciated free tea and coffee have now noticed that existing arrangements for first-class passengers hardly justify the cost of first-class tickets. Hence the introduction of premier service and business class. Premier service includes complimentary meals and various other extras to give a genuinely first-class travel experience, while business class gives more limited enhancements in first-class or segregated second-class carriages at the price of a standard open ticket."

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw75/laem.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that VT have now removed (though not changed the layout) the hybrid coaches on the Voyagers - as that - 2+2, but wider spacing and more tables - is exactly how I would see a "middle class" being.

 

[LowLevel]

The Zone signs on stations were of course an Intercity thing and spread across the whole network. I'm not sure if any survive now though they were quite common even 5 years ago. They were designed to assist boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Zone signs on stations were of course an Intercity thing

They were - but VT's Gold, Blue and Purple Zone thing, while derived from them, was not the same, it was a split on the train itself[1]. It only lasted about 6 months around 1997-1998ish, and it, unlike the platform signs, didn't have an Orange Zone.

For coach positions VWC have now moved to numbers marked on the platform surface which work reasonably well. On East Coast the coach positions have signs, but that's easier when most of the formations are the same.

[1] For fairly obvious reasons, a reverse formation caused an amusing situation.

 

[Flying Snail]

Midland Main Line tried a Business Class briefly around 1997 - it didn't guarantee a first class seat as it was movable (denoted by removable stickers on windows and headrests) but in practice I don't believe First Class was ever busy enough to mean that Business Class passengers were seated in standard class seats.

I can't remember what the benefits were, except that in First at that time all food and drink was free, which wasn't the case in Business. Tea and coffee was free for everyone on MML at that time, of course.

Edited to add: I've found reference to this in a local user group newsletter from 1998 - had forgotten real First was renamed "Premier"!

"The people who brought us the much-appreciated free tea and coffee have now noticed that existing arrangements for first-class passengers hardly justify the cost of first-class tickets. Hence the introduction of premier service and business class. Premier service includes complimentary meals and various other extras to give a genuinely first-class travel experience, while business class gives more limited enhancements in first-class or segregated second-class carriages at the price of a standard open ticket."

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw75/laem.html

I recall being rudely turfed out of a MML 1st class coach because I didn't have a super/executive/premier/vip MML only ticket, just a lowly 1st class ticket, had I known that the accommodation I was allowed occupy would have been available with a standard class ticket I would have kicked up more.

They were - but VT's Gold, Blue and Purple Zone thing, while derived from them, was not the same, it was a split on the train itself[1]. It only lasted about 6 months around 1997-1998ish, and it, unlike the platform signs, didn't have an Orange Zone.

For coach positions VWC have now moved to numbers marked on the platform surface which work reasonably well. On East Coast the coach positions have signs, but that's easier when most of the formations are the same.

[1] For fairly obvious reasons, a reverse formation caused an amusing situation.

People still pay little heed to the markings, go to any station where the platform entrance/canopy is beside the normal stopping place for 1st class and there will be a mass shuffle as every train comes to a stop and the majority of people realise they are at the wrong end. Oxenholme/Penrith are good for this.

 

[ScotTrains]

Personally I think First class and standard class are currently too similar. I would like to see an improvement to First class: bigger meals, seats, etc (though East coast is quite good). I'd also like to see a reintroduction of third class. Perhaps call it extra economy for those who don't like the term third class. This could be megatrain type tickets in a coach with just seats, no tables, no window alignment and little luggage space. Basically for people who just want to get from a to b cheaply.

 

[Clansman]

Personally I think First class and standard class are currently too similar. I would like to see an improvement to First class: bigger meals, seats, etc (though East coast is quite good). I'd also like to see a reintroduction of third class. Perhaps call it extra economy for those who don't like the term third class. This could be megatrain type tickets in a coach with just seats, no tables, no window alignment and little luggage space. Basically for people who just want to get from a to b cheaply.

Disagree with you there on a number of levels. Even the people who "just want to get from A to B" want a decent seat, a window, table and luggage space. People aren't even content with the current seating arrangements in some standard class trains, the Voyagers for example: with only 2 group tables in each coach, too many cramped airline style seats, and poor window alignment.

The "3rd class" idea wouldn't be popular under the conditions in which you stated: poor window to seat alignment, little luggage space, no tables etc. It would definitely decrease passenger satisfaction levels, no one would want to use it. It wouldn't generate revenue for TOC's as it would involve either cutting the cost of tickets ontop of the fact they would be running an extra carriage, or converting standard carriages. Why does the conditions of this "3rd class" have to be like you stated? In my opinion, the only reason a 3rd class was to be introduced would be to introduce an "in-between of standard and first." Definitely wouldn't use the terminology 3rd class, would be more of an insult to passengers, as it would clearly highlight a division between social classes like in the old BR days.

I'd have the format something like this: STANDARD-PREMIUM-FIRST. Standard class being the same as it is now. Premium being more about extra comfort and space, with a fixed and cheap upgrade scheme for both weekends and weekdays to make it more appealing and affordable, providing slightly bigger seats (not the same as First) and fixed tables at every seat (including airline ones) aligned with windows throughout, in 2+1 formation, but without complimentary service. A class something similar to First Class on the Voyagers (Would certainly generate more revenue and be more feasible able for TOC's). First Class would have even bigger seats, an at seat service, more legroom, bigger tables, curtains, cutlery/cups at tables. Basically the same First Class as used by Virgin Trains East Coast.

Excuse the long, off thread topic rant

 

[cjmillsnun]

Silver Standard. It might even have been Inter City EC.

Of course there was a silver service restaurant in those days.

Silver Standard was definitely an INTERCITY thing. I remember it on the WCML as well

 

[SaveECRewards]

I also received this survey a week or two ago although a little while before that I decided to do a poll asking what things from the past you'd like brought back and second to East Coast Rewards (obvious due to the topic of the site) was an improved weekend first class service and then restaurants.

Standard Plus I remember was around in 2002 when I was working in South Yorkshire and it didn't last long. It worked best on the Eurostar sets as they had more carriages. It was effectively a first class service in a standard class carriage (remember complimentary items back then were limited to hot drinks, water and orange juice and biscuits as a snack but you could order anything from the buffet at seat). Apart from the standard class seats the other difference was you didn't get a saucer (just like in first class now!).

I'm guessing some of the items in the survey that are already implemented (such as seat selector) are there to see if people are aware they already exist, if more people say it's a good idea than actually use it then it'd be a good sign that they need to promote it more.

In our meetings with VTEC some of the things that appeared in the survey had actually been mentioned as things they're looking into to improve the experience. They do genuinely want to improve the customer experience which is why they are bringing customer relations back in-house and they're updating systems to enable customer relations to identify customers that are high value or ones that have been unfortunate and have had significant inconvenience with delays.

This year as well as the lounge refurbishments set to be complete for all stations by end of March and the refurbishment on trains we should see an improved breakfast in first class. Those familiar with the product know that for consistency sake the breakfast is identical whether it's prepared by a chef or just heated up by a member of the crew. The plan is to increase the number of chefs on morning trains and improve the breakfast so it's more like the VTWC or EMT offering.

I'm worried that they may abolish the evening meal if that happens (as more chefs deployed to morning services). I've been told they want to improve the catering at all times of the day, but that could mean just improving the all day offering and scrapping the afternoon tea which is really just the all day menu minus the good stuff. The evening meal on the East Coast is much better than what you get on the west coast routes at this time.

Better on-board recognition has also been mentioned in the past. Similar approach to BA issue staff with tablets so they can identify passengers with tight connections (assuming they booked through them) and assist them if there's a delay, it would also be able to be used for a more personalised service as the survey was suggesting.

The long term aim when the class 800's are fully rolled out is to take advantage of the electronic reservations system while learning the mistakes of CrossCountry. Allowing people to book tickets tied to a particular train on the day itself will mean the quietest services can still be sold cheaper encouraging people onto less busy services. To avoid the problem of being booted out of your seat mid route by someone doing a last minute reservation they're looking at options such as sensors to see if a seat is occupied or allowing you to claim a vacant seat via the app so no one else can reserve it.

We've yet to see any of VTECs investments in technology (although the mobile 'Ticket Wallet' app was released under VTEC development occurred under East Coast) so hopefully the implementation meets expectations.

As for WiFi the intention is to make it free for all and as I suspected the free WiFi they gave out over Christmas and certain other days was a test to see how the system coped. The free WiFi may be phased in (e.g. offering it to purchasers of certain ticket types first) or it may just become free from a certain point. Last time I spoke to them it hadn't been decided.

The £5 admission fee to the Kings Cross lounge for advance tickets will go. They had silently removed the charge as a trial late last year but the signs were still up saying there was a charge. When the lounge reopens after its refurbishment the seating capacity will be increased so the lounge will then be officially open to all first class ticket holders.

So there's definitely going to be some genuine improvements in the pipeline, but we also have to look out for cutbacks.

Incidentally it'd be wrong to think of Save East Coast Rewards as an anti VTEC group as the most popular response on another poll was "Love VTEC, Hate Nectar" and the total of responses that rated VTEC positively was over 80%.