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North franchises ‘will not deliver transformational infrastructure’

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keith1879

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There are very many who actually live in the area that will actually benefit from the Ordsall Chord who are very convinced of the benefits of the Ordsall Chord.

Well the alternative reality espoused by many posters on this board has got me totally convinced. If we abandon ALL trains from the airport to anywhere other than Manchester Piccadilly, and then reduce the frequency to a single 16 coach train each hour we should be able to cope without the Ordsall Chord easily. If we then additionally and progressively remove other through connections while at the same time reducing all frequencies to an absolute maximum of two per hour we should fairly quickly avoid the need to erect any electrification masts or indeed buy trains because (guess what) nobody will want to travel.

Yes I'm exagerating and yes it's ridiculous.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Well the alternative reality espoused by many posters on this board has got me totally convinced. If we abandon ALL trains from the airport to anywhere other than Manchester Piccadilly, and then reduce the frequency to a single 16 coach train each hour we should be able to cope without the Ordsall Chord easily. If we then additionally and progressively remove other through connections while at the same time reducing all frequencies to an absolute maximum of two per hour we should fairly quickly avoid the need to erect any electrification masts or indeed buy trains because (guess what) nobody will want to travel.

Yes I'm exagerating and yes it's ridiculous.

Indeed so. How many stations can accommodate a 16 coach train in the area referred to...:roll:
 

keith1879

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Indeed so. How many stations can accommodate a 16 coach train in the area referred to...:roll:

Well naturally Paul I assume that we can convert some old underground trains into shunters and divide the 16 coach mega-train into bite-sized portions at each terminal - it's the sort of thing the old railway companies took in their stride

:)
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes I'm exagerating and yes it's ridiculous.

You're being rather ridiculous. I'd propose an S-Bahn-style EMU service from Manc Picc calling at all stations to the Airport at 4tph, thus improving the service at the local stations at the same time. One of those could continue to Crewe as at present.

Think of it as more a Merseyrail style service.
 

Haydn1971

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That's because there's 20,000 staff who work at the airport, with 60,000 passengers a day making use of the airport, all of whom need to arrive and depart the airport in some way.



It's a massive market that suits the railway perfectly, it would be silly not to service it in such numbers.


Oddly, not a view shared by HS2 on Heathrow !
 

pemma

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You're being rather ridiculous. I'd propose an S-Bahn-style EMU service from Manc Picc calling at all stations to the Airport at 4tph, thus improving the service at the local stations at the same time. One of those could continue to Crewe as at present.

Think of it as more a Merseyrail style service.

In larger German cities the S Bahn from the Airport operates alongside Regio services. Munich was looking at a new Regio route to the Airport recently alongside the existing 6tph on the S Bahn.
 

daodao

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You're being rather ridiculous. I'd propose an S-Bahn-style EMU service from Manc Picc calling at all stations to the Airport at 4tph, thus improving the service at the local stations at the same time. One of those could continue to Crewe as at present.

Think of it as more a Merseyrail style service.

A sensible proposal. There could be some additional fast electric trains leaving M/c Airport just before the stopping service and running through to Liverpool and Preston/points beyond on the "to be" electrified network (e.g. Blackpool North). The running of diesel trains "under the wires" should be minimised except where necessary to reach a major traffic point. There is no need to run diesel trains to M/c Airport.
 

Altfish

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The reason that many trains run through to the airport (apart from being convenient for passengers) is that there is nowhere for trains from the north or west to terminate at Piccadilly apart from where the ATW trains wait the Mayfield loop.
So, it is easy to run them through to the airport where they can be parked and turn round without stopping the show.
Running an airport express service from the airport wouldn't help because you still have to move the terminating trains out of platforms 13
 
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notlob.divad

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The reason that many trains run through to the airport (apart from being convenient for passengers) is that there is nowhere for trains from the north or west to terminate at Piccadilly apart from where the ATW trains wait the Mayfield loop.
So, it is easy to run them through to the airport where they can be parked and turn round without stopping the show.
Running an airport express service from the airport wouldn't help because you still have to move the terminating trains out of platforms 13

Precisely. The main issue is Piccadilly, for Manchester main station it has far too many terminating platforms facing the same way. And what is really annoying is that HS2 is going to create even more. But that's a matter for another thread.

The second issue is that the Airport has been used as a convenient terminus to get around this problem for too long and people have got used to and like the idea of having a direct link to such a major piece of infrastructure. Even if they rarely use it.
 
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Haydn1971

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Putting aside bigger aspirations such as HS3, what other large projects could help transform rail in the North ?

Perhaps;
- Four tracking Deansgate-Piccadilly ?
- Passing places on TPE North/South
- Fly overs/unders at key locations

Thoughts ?
 

yorksrob

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Putting aside bigger aspirations such as HS3, what other large projects could help transform rail in the North ?

Perhaps;
- Four tracking Deansgate-Piccadilly ?
- Passing places on TPE North/South
- Fly overs/unders at key locations

Thoughts ?

Given the slow crawl between Guide Bridge and Piccadilly, I often wonder whether four tracking between the two would speed up that section.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Oddly, not a view shared by HS2 on Heathrow !

Yes, HS2 not serving Heathrow is silly. Heathrow (as with other London airports) is however very well serviced by local/regional services. There's soon to be CrossRail to Heathrow, Underground, and there's the western access project ongoing, along with Heathrow Express. That's lots of capacity for staff and passengers to reach the airport.
 

darloscott

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Putting aside bigger aspirations such as HS3, what other large projects could help transform rail in the North ?

Perhaps;
- Four tracking Deansgate-Piccadilly ?
- Passing places on TPE North/South
- Fly overs/unders at key locations

Thoughts ?

A relatively simple one would be an extra 1/2 platforms at Darlington on the other side of the ECML to save crossing every half hour to get to Middlesbrough. This would allow an increase in the frequency and help feed the longer distance services that Teesside currently lacks.
 

daodao

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Precisely. The main issue is Piccadilly, for Manchester main station it has far too many terminating platforms facing the same way. And what is really annoying is that HS2 is going to create even more. But that's a matter for another thread.

The second issue is that the Airport has been used as a convenient terminus to get around this problem for too long and people have got used to and like the idea of having a direct link to such a major piece of infrastructure. Even if they rarely use it.

The MSJ&A line from Piccadilly to Knott Mill was not designed for and is not capable of taking all the traffic (including freight) that some people wish to route via it. Unfortunately, routeing trains via the Ordsall chord (now under construction) from Victoria to Piccadilly will exacerbate the problem. It is not physically practicable to quadruple this stretch of line.

More use should be made of Victoria as the main station for trains on the LNW Liverpool-Leeds route as well as most services from the north side of the city. All the diesel trains from Chester (via Warrington BQ), Southport and Blackburn/Clitheroe should run to Victoria. Conversion of the Bury and Oldham loop lines to Metrolink should have left sufficient capacity for these services.

The MSJ&A line should primarily be used for:
4 tph maximum off the CLC line from Liverpool (which should be electrified);
4 tph maximum (electric only) from the Bolton/Preston direction;
4 tph maximum via the Ordsall chord (preferably electric in the long-term).

Hopefully in the long-term most of these trains should be electric, and it is sensible for the majority to run through to the Airport or to other electrified suburban termini such as Hazel Grove, to reduce the problem of trains terminating at the narrow congested platforms 13/14.

In addition, no trains should run from the ex-GC lines across the Piccadilly station throat to the MSJ&A line. All diesel trains from the south and east should run into the terminal platforms at Piccadilly.
 

coppercapped

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In larger German cities the S Bahn from the Airport operates alongside Regio services. Munich was looking at a new Regio route to the Airport recently alongside the existing 6tph on the S Bahn.

Is this always true? Of the four German airports that I am most familiar with, Köln-Bonn, Hamburg, Frankfurt and München, only Frankfurt and Köln-Bonn have IC/ICE and Regionalbahn connections as well as S-Bahn links. Hamburg has both S-Bahn and U-Bahn connections and München only the S-Bahn, but over two different routes.

There are a lot of plans to improve the regional rail links into the Münchener Flughafen, but as far as I know none of them have yet been completed.

And when I was sitting in an S-Bahn late on a Sunday evening trying to get back to my flat near Pasing from München Flughafen for work on Monday morning, the attractions of a HEx type service over an all-stations S-Bahn seemed very pronounced. The S-Bahn journey time was three quarters of the flight time from Heathrow...for only 20 miles. :(

Mods' note: Any further discussion about airport links please use: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127657German style S-Bahn and Regio style services for Airports and not this thread
 
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Haydn1971

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Yes, HS2 not serving Heathrow is silly. Heathrow (as with other London airports) is however very well serviced by local/regional services. There's soon to be CrossRail to Heathrow, Underground, and there's the western access project ongoing, along with Heathrow Express. That's lots of capacity for staff and passengers to reach the airport.


The thinking being that Crossrail via Old Oak will service all terminals better I guess ?
 

coppercapped

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The thinking being that Crossrail via Old Oak will service all terminals better I guess ?

Well...at the moment, the plan is that Crossrail will only serve the Central Area (Terminals 1, 2 and 3) and Terminal 4. Terminal 5 will only be served by HEx.
 

notlob.divad

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To bring this back to it's original point. Yes the franchise will not deliver transformational infrastructure, there job is to 'tart up' existing stations not to overhaul the railways. Therefore what is the transformational infrastructure that is needed? within the bounds of reality.

As a Merseysider I hate my first suggestion, but
1. Does Manchester need to become the centre of Northern transport beyond the current hub project? By this I mean the London model. If you arrive in London on an intercity train you have to change to go anywhere else. So in Manchester you build the Ordsal chord and Re-instate the Blind lane but with a chord on a flyover to go south to the Airport and Run an MIA - MAN - MCO - DGT - SFD - MCV - SPORTCITY - MIA regular clock face service in either direction / one direction. No one would get a direct airport connection except the people on the route between Wilmslow and Levenshulme? Effectively creating an overground circle line. The trains would be at a similar frequency to the London Underground. 3-5 minutes. (i.e. just Enough time to reverse them at the airport and making them the only trains using the Piccadilly - Victoria link.

1b Alternatively Do all the Manchester stations need to be combined into one mega station with terminal and through platforms in every direction?

2 Do the main lines between all the Northern cities (Manchester - Leeds - Sheffield Triangle, Man - Liverpool, and Sheffield to Newcastle via Leeds) all need to be four tracked.
2b Could this be combined with clock face stopping Metro services that interface rather than intertwine. For example Merseyrail and Metrolink extend to Warrington Central, Newton le Willows, Wigan and Preston. With a similar central focused metro around Leeds and Sheffield (Splitting points are less obvious but you get the idea.)

3 Pause HS2 Phase 2 when Crewe is joined up and Focus on a 'HS3' with stations aligned for Optimum inter connectivity for the North maybe Sheffield to Newcastle with a Liverpool to 3 way junction somewhere near Barnsley and a branch to Liverpool via Manchester. HS2 could then continue roughly as intended to Sheffield and extend from Crewe to join the Manchester - Liverpool Branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The MSJ&A line from Piccadilly to Knott Mill was not designed for and is not capable of taking all the traffic (including freight) that some people wish to route via it. Unfortunately, routeing trains via the Ordsall chord (now under construction) from Victoria to Piccadilly will exacerbate the problem.

Agreed, particularly the freight it never ceases to amaze me standing on a very crowded platform 14 at Piccadilly and seeing a freight train go past. I don't know where this is going from / to but find it incredible that there is not a bypass. If MSJ&A didn't already exist you certainly wouldn't design the Ordsall Chord like this.

It is not physically practicable to quadruple this stretch of line.
Not in the realms of finance for Northern Railway projects. Maybe if it was joining Kings Cross and Victoria. I had always wondered, (if money and disruption was no object) if you could completely knock down the viaduct and rebuild it as a double deck 2 track. But yes I agree its not likely.

More use should be made of Victoria as the main station for trains on the LNW Liverpool-Leeds route as well as most services from the north side of the city.

In addition, no trains should run from the ex-GC lines across the Piccadilly station throat to the MSJ&A line. All diesel trains from the south and east should run into the terminal platforms at Piccadilly.

If I understand you that has the effect of stopping the Cleethorpes train extending to the Airport and the Nottingham-Norwich Train continuing to Liverpool. I have very mixed feelings about this I spent 4 years of my life in Sheffield and those trains particularly the Liverpool one where my lifeline. Given all your trains that are going from North West places to Victoria, having trains to major places to the South East where you have to make multiple changes in Manchester is exactly the kind of thing that stops you travelling by train and puts you in a car.

I think as a general rule of thumb most users across the North would expect every city to have a direct connection to every other. A provincial towns eg Warrington, Bradford, Blackburn, Burnley, Wakefield, Barnsley, Middlesborough Scunthorpe, Doncaster, etc should have a regular service between each other by a maximum of two connections, and have access to each of the Northern cities by a maximum of one, I think the East Midlands - Liverpool service caters for a lot of those. Certainly cities the size of Liverpool and Sheffield should have a direct connection between them.

I don't know about the airport. I have to be honest I have only once got a return train journey to MIA. I would love to use it more, but most of my travel recently is business and they put a Private Taxi for us. Also whilst there might be early/late trains between the cities and the airport, there are rarely trains running early enough to get you from the outlying towns to one of those trains or late enough to get you home. What I do know was that the day I tried it, there had been some cable theft on the route and the one direct train I had planned to get was cancelled. I just made check in for the flight because I now had to make 2 connections, one to get to the right Manchester station as the next train went to Victoria then one at Piccadilly. It was incredibly stressful and is probably what puts me off doing it more. Many people claim it is for the baggage that make people want a direct connection when actually I think it is the increased stress of potential missed connections and thus your flight. The chord will do a lot to help this as people will now only ever have to make one connection and if you are delayed there will be plenty of other services to the airport it won't however help with the early departures and late arrivals.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Does Manchester need to become the centre of Northern transport beyond the current hub project? By this I mean the London model. If you arrive in London on an intercity train you have to change to go anywhere else. So in Manchester you build the Ordsal chord and Re-instate the Blind lane but with a chord on a flyover to go south to the Airport and Run an MIA - MAN - MCO - DGT - SFD - MCV - SPORTCITY - MIA regular clock face service in either direction / one direction. No one would get a direct airport connection except the people on the route between Wilmslow and Levenshulme? Effectively creating an overground circle line. The trains would be at a similar frequency to the London Underground. 3-5 minutes. (i.e. just Enough time to reverse them at the airport and making them the only trains using the Piccadilly - Victoria link.

Can you supply drawings/maps showing the proposed reinstated Blind Lane line with its chord on a flyover so forum members without intimate knowledge of the East Manchester area and its existing railway lines can have a better understanding of the point that you so wish to make and enable them to make responses to you.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Agreed, particularly the freight it never ceases to amaze me standing on a very crowded platform 14 at Piccadilly and seeing a freight train go past. I don't know where this is going from / to but find it incredible that there is not a bypass. If MSJ&A didn't already exist you certainly wouldn't design the Ordsall Chord like this.

They go to Trafford Park container terminal, reached via the CLC.
Useless connections at the western end (none at Warrington, wrong way at Hunts Cross/Allerton).
There's a vague possibility of a western connection between Glazebrook and the Chat Moss line (via the old GC Wigan route), but in the meantime it all has to run via the South Junction line.
 

daodao

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Agreed, particularly the freight it never ceases to amaze me standing on a very crowded platform 14 at Piccadilly and seeing a freight train go past. I don't know where this is going from / to but find it incredible that there is not a bypass. If MSJ&A didn't already exist you certainly wouldn't design the Ordsall Chord like this.

If I understand you that has the effect of stopping the Cleethorpes train extending to the Airport and the Nottingham-Norwich Train continuing to Liverpool.

Closure of the South District and Fallowfield loop lines (to heavy rail) has meant that the only rail bypass in south M/c is the CLC/LNW line from Cheadle Heath/Edgeley to the Mid Cheshire line. This suffers from 3 level crossings in the Altrincham area and multiple sections of single track. It is roundabout and can only access the rest of NW England via a link west of Greenbank to the WCML. This is of no use for accessing Trafford Park. Some of the freight train routeings, as shown on RTT, are very convoluted.

There may be a case for retaining 1 diesel tph from Sheffield via Stockport and the CLC line to Lime St, at least while most of this route is not electrified. Entering platforms 13/14 from the Stockport direction doesn't create the problems at Piccadilly that accessing them from the ex-GC lines does.

A fast connection to the Airport from rail-served points east of Stockport could be provided by diverting half-hourly Trent bus 199 from Buxton via Edgeley station.

More use should be made of the NSR line from Derby to Crewe to provide connections from the East Midlands to NW England. Trains should be extended to Nottingham and be larger (not just a single coach class 153).
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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A fast connection to the Airport from rail-served points east of Stockport could be provided by diverting half-hourly Trent bus 199 from Buxton via Edgeley station.

The 199 service is an all-stops service to Stockport from Buxton and already passes but a short distance away from Stockport railway station on the A6. I understand that the former two-way access to the railway station from the A6 is under threat of one of the two approach roads being stopped off as part of the new build upgrading works currently in progress.
 
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daodao

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The 199 service is an all-stops service to Stockport from Buxton and already passes but a short distance away from Stockport railway station on the A6. I understand that the former two-way access to the railway station from the A6 is under threat of one of the two approach roads being stopped off as part of the new build upgrading works currently in progress.

The 199 service is non-stop from Stockport to the Airport. Passengers from Sheffield trains could change to this bus for a fast connection to the Airport if the bus called at Edgeley station, instead of the roundabout route via Piccadilly.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The 199 service is non-stop from Stockport to the Airport. Passengers from Sheffield trains could change to this bus for a fast connection to the Airport if the bus called at Edgeley station, instead of the roundabout route via Piccadilly.

Your mention of the roundabout route via Piccadilly confuses me somewhat as the 199 turns left from the A6 at Exchange Street (where the Garrick theatre is on the corner) when heading into Stockport bus station before making its non-stop motorway run from there to Manchester Airport interchange. whereas Piccadilly in Stockport is on the other side of the A6.

Perhaps High Peak could be interested in your proposal in this suggestion of providing such a connectional linkage and it may pay you to ask them if they would consider such an addition to their existing route, but I do ask you to note my comments about the current change to the access roads (Railway Road and Station Road) that lead to Stockport railway station.
 

daodao

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Your mention of the roundabout route via Piccadilly confuses me somewhat as the 199 turns left from the A6 at Exchange Street (where the Garrick theatre is on the corner) when heading into Stockport bus station before making its non-stop motorway run from there to Manchester Airport interchange. whereas Piccadilly in Stockport is on the other side of the A6.

Perhaps High Peak could be interested in your proposal in this suggestion of providing such a connectional linkage and it may pay you to ask them if they would consider such an addition to their existing route, but I do ask you to note my comments about the current change to the access roads (Railway Road and Station Road) that lead to Stockport railway station.

Apologies for the confusion - I meant the roundabout rail route that the Cleethorpes trains take from Stockport to M/C Airport via M/c Piccadilly, not the street Piccadilly in Stockport! I was not aware of the change in road access to the Edgeley station, which would make my suggestion more problematic. There does seem to be a policy of making bus access to railway stations more difficult, as with the closure of the access ramp at M/c Piccadilly and the closure of the Cardiff Central Bus Station.
 

notlob.divad

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Can you supply drawings/maps showing the proposed reinstated Blind Lane line with its chord on a flyover so forum members without intimate knowledge of the East Manchester area and its existing railway lines can have a better understanding of the point that you so wish to make and enable them to make responses to you.

I hope that works. On the left is the Ordsall chord linking Victoria to Deasngate, Blue in the bottom lane shows the original Blind lane Viaduct it is overgrown but physically intact as far as I am aware. The route is still protected to the point that HS2 is not destroying it.
(Sorry if people know it by a differnet name)

My proposal if you want to call it that was to join the southern side of the Piccadilly Stockport route with a flyover (Orange) to this creating round Manchester loop. And a new station near the Etihad Stadium Services could work like a big Wirral line of merseyrail or a smaller version of the London Underground Circle line, albeit overground.
 

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sheff1

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A fast connection to the Airport from rail-served points east of Stockport could be provided by diverting half-hourly Trent bus 199 from Buxton via Edgeley station.

The 199 service is non-stop from Stockport to the Airport. Passengers from Sheffield trains could change to this bus for a fast connection to the Airport if the bus called at Edgeley station, instead of the roundabout route via Piccadilly.

Why would anyone travelling from the east by rail, with a destination of a rail served airport, want to transfer to a bus service for the last section of the journey ? Especially when the bus runs only every 30 mins and the train service (from Piccadilly) is much more frequent.
 
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Greybeard33

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Why would anyone travelling from the east by rail, with a destination of a rail served airport, want to transfer to a bus service for the last section of the journey ? Especially when the bus runs only every 30 mins and the train service (from Piccadilly) is much more frequent.
And the bus may theoretically be "non-stop" from Stockport to the Airport, but can easily be delayed half an hour by stop-start traffic on the M60 and M56 at busy times. Not to mention late arrivals at Stockport due to delays on the congested A6 from Buxton!
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder that this thread is about North franchises ‘will not deliver transformational infrastructure’

If you spot someone talking about airports or anything unrelated to the above, please create a new thread (in an appropriate forum, with an appropriate title) to discuss that further.
 
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